Need a first name

Girl Names
1

Hubby and I are expecting our first little one on [name_u]June[/name_u] 1st, and we have a boy’s name picked, but are struggling to agree on a girl’s name. We do find out what we are having in 15 days (fingers crossed the nugget cooperates) but I’d still like to get some ideas since there is a 50% chance a little girl is in our future!

Our boy’s name is [name_m]David[/name_m] [name_m]Theodore[/name_m] [name_m]John[/name_m], nicknamed [name_u]Teddy[/name_u].

The middle names for a girl will be [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f], after my two grandmothers, but we have wildly differing name opinions and are having trouble picking a first name to go with them.

I am open to any and all suggestions. Thanks in advance for your help!

EDIT so all the info is on page one:

I deliberately didn’t expand on what we like because we’re at an impasse with girls names - we really don’t agree on much and I was hoping to get some “anything goes” type of suggestions. I figured our boy option might give you a hint of an idea what we like, but not be too obvious…

But basically I like names with a bit of history, I like names with a literary connection, I like names that have great nickname options, because I love a good nickname. Some favorites: Josephine, Rosemary, Clarissa, Philippa, Charlotte, Violet, Caroline, Cordelia, Anneliese… hubby is not thrilled with any of these. I also like Avery and Piper, which are not like the typical names I like, but he has not crossed them off the list.

Hubby, is not a name nerd at all. He has few parameters (the only one really that it not be too weird, though he has yet to expand on what he means by weird), and the list of what he’s vetoed is longer than the list of names he’s actually expressed interest in. His only suggestions have been Sarah and Rhiannon (he’s a big Fleetwood Mac fan), both of which I’ve vetoed. He liked my suggestions of Clara and Annaleigh, but those are very low on my list.

I’m really into the flow of a name and how it sounds. Not lots of repeated sounds, the cadence has to be nice. Our last name is two syllables, starts with a C and ends in ER.

Hope that gives more to work with, but really I am open to all suggestions at this point. We’re only t-13 days to finding out gender, and if it is a girl I’m going to start freaking out, lol. I’m quite the planner and it is stressing me out that we don’t have a choice…

EDIT: DEFINITELY nothing that ends in -lyn. I’ve seen a few suggestions of Evelyn and Carolyn, etc… way too repetitive with Marilyn being one of the middle names. I vetoed Clara because I thought the sound was too similar, and that isn’t even as repetitive. So definitely no names with -lyn please.

2

Your sons name is so cute and I love the two middle names after the grandmothers. Would you go for [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] or do you want to stick with the two middle names after family and another first?

[name_m]David[/name_m] [name_m]Theodore[/name_m] [name_m]John[/name_m] &
[name_f]Charlotte[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Esther[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Elizabeth[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Suzanna[/name_f]/[name_f]Suzanne[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Francesca[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_u]Evelyn[/name_u] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Phoebe[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]

3

What are some of the names that you both like? Maybe there is a compromise. (Without really knowing the style you are looking for, it is hard to make suggestions.) I’m going with shorter names, since the middle names are long.

[name_u]Ruby[/name_u] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Anna[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Audrey[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Leah[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Tessa[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Jane[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Cora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Willa[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]

good luck!

4

[name_f]Alice[/name_f]
[name_f]Ivy[/name_f]
Anneleise
[name_f]Elin[/name_f]
[name_f]Georgia[/name_f]
[name_u]June[/name_u]

5

I’m with lissylou–we’ll need to know what kinds of names you and your husband like to give you better suggestions.

6

I deliberately didn’t expand on what we like because we’re at an impasse with girls names - we really don’t agree on much and I was hoping to get some “anything goes” type of suggestions. I figured our boy option might give you a hint of an idea what we like, but not be too obvious…

But basically I like names with a bit of history, I like names with a literary connection, I like names that have great nickname options, because I love a good nickname. Some favorites: [name_f]Josephine[/name_f], [name_f]Rosemary[/name_f], [name_f]Clarissa[/name_f], [name_f]Philippa[/name_f], [name_f]Charlotte[/name_f], [name_f]Violet[/name_f], [name_f]Caroline[/name_f], [name_f]Cordelia[/name_f], [name_f]Anneliese[/name_f]… hubby is not thrilled with any of these. I also like [name_u]Avery[/name_u] and [name_u]Piper[/name_u], which are not like the typical names I like, but he has not crossed them off the list.

Hubby, is not a name nerd at all. He has few parameters (the only one really that it not be too weird, though he has yet to expand on what he means by weird), and the list of what he’s vetoed is longer than the list of names he’s actually expressed interest in. His only suggestions have been [name_f]Sarah[/name_f] and [name_f]Rhiannon[/name_f] (he’s a big [name_m]Fleetwood[/name_m] [name_m]Mac[/name_m] fan), both of which I’ve vetoed. He liked my suggestions of [name_f]Clara[/name_f] and [name_f]Annaleigh[/name_f], but those are very low on my list.

I’m really into the flow of a name and how it sounds. Not lots of repeated sounds, the cadence has to be nice. Our last name is two syllables, starts with a C and ends in ER.

[name_f]Hope[/name_f] that gives more to work with, but really I am open to all suggestions at this point. We’re only t-13 days to finding out gender, and if it is a girl I’m going to start freaking out, lol. I’m quite the planner and it is stressing me out that we don’t have a choice…

EDIT: DEFINITELY nothing that ends in -lyn. I’ve seen a few suggestions of Evelyn and Carolyn, etc… way too repetitive with Marilyn being one of the middle names. I vetoed Clara because I thought the sound was too similar, and that isn’t even as repetitive. So definitely no names with -lyn please.

7

If he’s a big [name_m]Fleetwood[/name_m] [name_m]Mac[/name_m] fan (as am I) what about [name_u]Stevie[/name_u] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]? I also like [name_f]Edith[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] since you seem to go for more traditional.

8

[name_f]Annalie[/name_f]
[name_f]Emma[/name_f]
[name_f]Carolyn[/name_f]
[name_f]Primrose[/name_f]
[name_f]Astra[/name_f]
[name_f]Kenna[/name_f]
[name_m]Renn[/name_m]
[name_f]Liesel[/name_f]
[name_f]Morgana[/name_f]
[name_f]Faye[/name_f]

9

Neither of us are huge fans of nicknames as given names - and I particularly do not like it. I prefer names that can be shortened to nicknames easily. So [name_u]Stevie[/name_u] is definitely out (though he has suggested it).

I like [name_f]Edith[/name_f], but he’s vetoed it :frowning:

10

Neither of us are huge fans of nicknames as given names - and I particularly do not like it. I prefer names that can be shortened to nicknames easily. So [name_u]Stevie[/name_u] is definitely out (though he has suggested it).

I like [name_f]Edith[/name_f], but he’s vetoed it :frowning:

11

[name_f]Penelope[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Poppy[/name_f]/[name_u]Penny[/name_u]/[name_f]Nell[/name_f])
[name_f]Henrietta[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Etta[/name_f]/[name_f]Hattie[/name_f])
[name_f]Wilhelmina[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Willa[/name_f]/[name_f]Mina[/name_f])
[name_f]Winifred[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Winnie[/name_f])
[name_f]Annora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Nora[/name_f]/[name_f]Annie[/name_f])
[name_f]Abigail[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_u]Abby[/name_u])
[name_f]Elisabeth[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Elsa[/name_f]/[name_f]Beth[/name_f]/[name_f]Libby[/name_f]/[name_f]Betsy[/name_f]/[name_f]Bet[/name_f], etc.)
[name_f]Helena[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Lena[/name_f])
[name_f]Aurora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_u]Rory[/name_u])
[name_f]Audrey[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_u]Audie[/name_u])
[name_f]Cora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Eliza[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Ivy[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Iris[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Phoebe[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Tabitha[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Theodora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Thea[/name_f])
[name_f]Loretta[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Etta[/name_f])
[name_f]Isadora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f]
[name_f]Gwyneth[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] ([name_f]Gwen[/name_f])

??

12

I like a lot of these, but I can see my husband wrinkling his nose at them already, lol. (or he already has - [name_f]Wilhelmina[/name_f], [name_f]Winifred[/name_f], [name_f]Cora[/name_f], [name_f]Phoebe[/name_f]…)

I love [name_f]Penelope[/name_f], but baby’s cousin is named [name_f]Penelope[/name_f]. And we already have an [name_f]Abigail[/name_f], [name_f]Loretta[/name_f], and [name_f]Elizabeth[/name_f].

I [name_f]ADORE[/name_f] [name_f]Cora[/name_f], but hubby has vetoed it multiple times :frowning:

[name_f]Theodora[/name_f] seems a bit redundant since we plan on naming our first son [name_m]David[/name_m] [name_m]Theodore[/name_m] [name_m]John[/name_m] and calling him [name_u]Teddy[/name_u].

I’ll have to see if some of these fly with him. I particularly like [name_f]Helena[/name_f], [name_f]Aurora[/name_f], and [name_f]Tabitha[/name_f] from this list.

13

I love the name [name_f]Sarah[/name_f] with [name_f]Sadie[/name_f] as a nickname… or [name_u]Stevie[/name_u]! If he really loves music, mention that [name_u]Piper[/name_u] is a musical name.

If you like [name_f]Rosemary[/name_f] and he likes [name_f]Annaleigh[/name_f], why not [name_f]Rosalie[/name_f]?

[name_f]Francine[/name_f], [name_f]Frances[/name_f], or [name_f]Francesca[/name_f] - [name_u]Fran[/name_u], [name_u]Frannie[/name_u], [name_u]Frankie[/name_u] and [name_f]Francie[/name_f] are all great, imo!
[name_f]Coralie[/name_f]
[name_f]Gweneth[/name_f]
[name_f]Isadora[/name_f]
[name_f]Alessandra[/name_f]
[name_f]Lorelei[/name_f]
[name_f]Seraphine[/name_f] - a musical name that’s like an update on [name_f]Stephanie[/name_f]. You could easily get [name_u]Stevie[/name_u] from this! As well as [name_f]Sera[/name_f] which is basically [name_f]Sara[/name_f], and my favourite pet name for [name_f]Seraphine[/name_f] is [name_u]Rae[/name_u]!
[name_f]Rhoswen[/name_f]
[name_f]Virginia[/name_f]

14

I second the suggestion of [name_f]Seraphine[/name_f]! I think [name_f]Seraphine[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] sounds lovely.

15

I love [name_f]Sadie[/name_f] as a nickname, but we have friends who [name_m]JUST[/name_m] had a baby and named her [name_f]Sadie[/name_f]. Not that we see them much, but where she won’t even be a year when our little one debuts, we don’t want to ruffle any feathers.

I love [name_f]Rosalie[/name_f], but I already have a niece with that name :slight_smile:

[name_u]Love[/name_u] love love [name_f]Lorelai[/name_f] - lots of great nickname options, too. Hubby is luke warm on it, but I may be able to get him to come around. His mother’s name is [name_f]Laura[/name_f], so I am hinting often that it is kind of an honor name for her. I’m definitely keeping it on the list.

I like [name_f]Seraphine[/name_f], and [name_f]Seraphina[/name_f] even more. I thought it would be a great compromise for us, since I like names that are a bit more elaborate, but then it has a simple nickname of a name he likes. But he crossed it off. I’m insisting on keeping it as an option, though. Maybe if I suggest [name_u]Stevie[/name_u] as a nn for it he would be more receptive…

I really like [name_f]Frances[/name_f] and [name_f]Coralie[/name_f], too. Thanks :slight_smile:

16

[LEFT][/LEFT]I don’t know that I will bring you anything new to the table, but here is for a try:

[name_f]Gwendolyn[/name_f]/[name_f]Guinevere[/name_f] -in the realm of “too weird?”
[name_f]Eliana[/name_f]/[name_f]Eliora[/name_f] - too unfamiliar?
[name_f]Ophelia[/name_f] - beautiful name, sad literary connections
[name_f]Genevieve[/name_f]
[name_f]Melinda[/name_f]/[name_f]Melody[/name_f]
[name_f]Belinda[/name_f]
[name_f]Georgiana[/name_f]/[name_f]Georgina[/name_f]/[name_f]Georgia[/name_f]
[name_f]Frederica[/name_f]
[name_f]Susannah[/name_f]/[name_f]Susan[/name_f]
[name_f]Katherine[/name_f]/[name_f]Catherine[/name_f]
[name_f]Margaret[/name_f]
[name_f]Emilia[/name_f]/[name_f]Amelia[/name_f]
[name_f]Vanessa[/name_f]
[name_f]Victoria[/name_f]
[name_f]Veronica[/name_f]
[name_f]Irene[/name_f]/[name_f]Irena[/name_f]
[name_f]Elizabeth[/name_f]
[name_f]Julia[/name_f]/[name_f]Juliana[/name_f]/[name_f]Juliet[/name_f]
[name_f]Selene[/name_f]/[name_f]Celine[/name_f]/Silena
[name_f]Silvia[/name_f]/[name_f]Sylvia[/name_f]
[name_f]Aurelia[/name_f] - too out there?
[name_f]Aurora[/name_f]
[name_f]Annabel[/name_f]/[name_f]Annabeth[/name_f] - because he seemed keen on [name_f]Annaleigh[/name_f]
[name_f]Fiona[/name_f]/[name_f]Fia[/name_f]
[name_f]Arabella[/name_f]
[name_f]Magdalena[/name_f]
[name_f]Madeleine[/name_f]/[name_f]Madelena[/name_f] - too close to [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f]?
[name_f]Virginia[/name_f]
[name_f]Evangeline[/name_f]
[name_f]Daphne[/name_f]
[name_f]Violet[/name_f]/[name_f]Viola[/name_f]
[name_f]Celia[/name_f]/[name_f]Cecilia[/name_f]
[name_f]Bernadette[/name_f] - too grandmotherly?
[name_f]Wilhelmina[/name_f]
[name_f]Orianne[/name_f]/[name_f]Oriana[/name_f]
[name_f]Naomi[/name_f]/[name_f]Noemi[/name_f]
[name_f]Hazel[/name_f]
[name_f]Angelica[/name_f]
[name_f]Angeline[/name_f]/[name_f]Angelina[/name_f]
[name_f]Serena[/name_f]/[name_f]Sirena[/name_f]/[name_f]Syrena[/name_f]
[name_f]Miriam[/name_f]
[name_f]Esther[/name_f]
[name_f]Cassandra[/name_f]
[name_u]Meredith[/name_u]
[name_f]Michaela[/name_f]
[name_f]Gabrielle[/name_f]/[name_f]Gabriella[/name_f]
[name_f]Danielle[/name_f]/[name_f]Daniella[/name_f]

17

[name_m]How[/name_m] about these?
[name_f]Emily[/name_f]
[name_f]Alice[/name_f]
[name_f]Audrey[/name_f]
[name_f]Emma[/name_f]
[name_f]Eva[/name_f]
[name_f]Eve[/name_f]
[name_f]Claire[/name_f] (too matchy with surname?)
[name_f]Abigail[/name_f]
[name_f]Lucy[/name_f]
[name_f]Rebecca[/name_f]
[name_f]Sophie[/name_f]
[name_f]Madeline[/name_f]
[name_f]Matilda[/name_f]
[name_f]Natalie[/name_f]
[name_f]Amelia[/name_f]
[name_f]Eleanor[/name_f] (also too matchy?)
[name_f]Madeline[/name_f]
[name_f]Imogen[/name_f]
[name_f]Rosalind[/name_f]
[name_f]Rosamund[/name_f]
[name_f]Genevieve[/name_f]
[name_f]Margaret[/name_f]
[name_f]Ivy[/name_f]
[name_f]Beatrix[/name_f]
[name_f]Beatrice[/name_f]
[name_f]Victoria[/name_f]
[name_f]Catherine[/name_f]
[name_f]Isabel[/name_f]

18

What about [name_u]Lindsey[/name_u] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C—er? Some other [name_m]Fleetwood[/name_m] [name_m]Mac[/name_m] inspired names: [name_u]Nicola[/name_u], [name_f]Petra[/name_f], [name_f]Rebekkah[/name_f] (nn [name_f]Bekka[/name_f]), [name_f]Stephanie[/name_f], [name_f]Kira[/name_f], and [name_f]Celeste[/name_f] (for Sisters of the [name_f]Moon[/name_f]).

Some other possibilities:

[name_f]Aurora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er (nn [name_u]Rory[/name_u])
[name_f]Eliza[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_u]Eloise[/name_u] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Eva[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Flora[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Georgia[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Judith[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Nadia[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Olivia[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Serena[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er
[name_f]Teresa[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C–er ([name_f]Tess[/name_f], [name_f]Tessa[/name_f])
[name_f]Veronica[/name_f] [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] [name_f]Lucille[/name_f] C—er

19

[name_f]Georgiana[/name_f]/[name_f]Georgina[/name_f]/[name_f]Georgia[/name_f] - [name_u]Love[/name_u] [name_f]Georgiana[/name_f], hubby’s crossed it off before, but maybe I’ll sneak it back on. He’s fickle, so something he’s disliked one day he may like another.
[name_f]Katherine[/name_f]/[name_f]Catherine[/name_f] - I do like [name_f]Katherine[/name_f], and [name_f]Catherine[/name_f] was my grandmother [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f]'s middle name, so it would kind of make sense, but I’m not sure if it is too common…
[name_f]Margaret[/name_f] - I like [name_f]Margaret[/name_f], but not with the middle names
[name_f]Julia[/name_f]/[name_f]Juliana[/name_f]/[name_f]Juliet[/name_f] - I’ve suggested [name_f]Juliette[/name_f] and hubby vetoed, but [name_f]Juliana[/name_f] is very pretty, and he seems to like [name_f]Ann[/name_f] names, so maybe that would work :slight_smile:
[name_f]Aurora[/name_f] - love this one, but it is a nose wrinkler for the husband.
[name_f]Annabel[/name_f]/[name_f]Annabeth[/name_f] - because he seemed keen on [name_f]Annaleigh[/name_f] - I’m definitely going to suggest [name_f]Annabel[/name_f]. He literally HATES the name [name_f]Beth[/name_f], so [name_f]Annabeth[/name_f] would not fly.
[name_f]Violet[/name_f]/[name_f]Viola[/name_f] - I love [name_f]Violet[/name_f], but it is another that might be too popular for my tastes…
[name_f]Cassandra[/name_f] - another I’ve suggested. Actually, both hubs and I are okay on it, but we just don’t feel like it is “the one”
[name_u]Meredith[/name_u] - I’m really liking this lately, but [name_f]Marilyn[/name_f] begins with very similar sounds, so it is too repetitive.
[name_f]Danielle[/name_f]/[name_f]Daniella[/name_f] - We will probably use one of these as an honor middle name if we were to ever have a second girl. Hubby’s little brother who passed away a week after birth was named [name_m]Daniel[/name_m]. I’m not keen on actually using [name_m]Daniel[/name_m], but I’d like to use [name_f]Danielle[/name_f] as a middle name someday. Not a first, though, a bit too morbid.

Thanks for the suggestions @greeneyes375!

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@namenerdery I do like [name_f]Isobel[/name_f], [name_f]Katherine[/name_f] and [name_f]Rebecca[/name_f]. Some of your other suggestions are names I like, but are just too common or simple for my tastes. Or my husband has already vehemently vetoed them (he flat out refused to even consider [name_f]Eleanor[/name_f]).

@davisellu [name_u]Lindsey[/name_u], [name_f]Stephanie[/name_f], and [name_u]Nicola[/name_u] would be repetitive in my family. I do like [name_f]Petra[/name_f] and [name_f]Rebecca[/name_f].

Still love [name_f]Aurora[/name_f]. [name_f]Tessa[/name_f] is one of those nicknames that I actually prefer more as a given, but mostly because I dislike [name_f]Theresa[/name_f]. I think if I were to use a more elaborate name to get to [name_f]Tessa[/name_f], it would be [name_f]Thessaly[/name_f], but I think that name is too much for my husband, lol. I do like the ring of [name_f]Tessa[/name_f] with our last name, though!