Race in Naming: New Questions

General Name Discussion
1

Earlier, I posted about names like [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] and that led to a pretty lively discussion! :slight_smile: I learned a bunch of things I never knew before and fortunately will not be naming a baby so I don’t need to decide if I would ever use it or not.

I have other questions now, the main one being:

  1. Are there other names (like [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] with its minstrel show phase of history) that are considered racist? For example, are there Italian names, Greek names, Japanese names, Latino names, [name_m]French[/name_m] names, African names that are off-limits because of their ethnicity?

What got me thinking about this (besides the [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] thread) was my recent reading of the local paper. I saw a picture of a boys’ ball team and I read all the names (like any good Nameberry!). One of the boys was named [name_m]Guido[/name_m] and my first reaction was, “YECH! That is THE ugliest name! WHO would name their child [name_m]GUIDO[/name_m]?”

Then I recoiled from myself, at once thinking, “Oh my God, I am so racist!”

Then I was confused. I actually think the sound and look of [name_m]Guido[/name_m] is ugly, really ugly. No offense to anyone with this name out there. So is that a racist thought? I also think many names are ugly and this seems to be beyond racial lines.

However, not only does the name sound and look ugly to me, it also seems such the stereotyped Italian name, the SNL Italian name, that it feels unusable. Insulting even.

But I may be mistaken about that. Maybe [name_m]Guido[/name_m] is a perfectly acceptable and common Italian name. I would like to know about the name taboos of other nationalities. For example, the name [name_m]Mick[/name_m] sounds insulting to the Irish to me, but again, that might be some erroneous impression in my mind.

  1. I am also curious about the appropriateness of naming your child a name out of his/her ethnicity. For example, I am of European-American ancestry, largely Celtic, [name_m]French[/name_m], and [name_m]German[/name_m]. If I were to name my child an African, Chinese, Spanish, Korean, or Italian name, would anyone bat an eye? Would I be offending? After all, most of my favorite names tend to be Greek anyway, and I am certainly not Greek.

I live in a Caucasian/Latino community and I think if I had named my children [name_m]Juan[/name_m] and [name_f]Maria[/name_f] that they would have been given a very hard time. I think I as a parent would have been too. I don’t know how I feel about that. I do know that a number of my Latino students over the years who have been named the commonly used [name_m]Juan[/name_m] and [name_f]Maria[/name_f] have not been happy over their name choices, expressing some concerns over their stereotypical nature.

Any polite responses eagerly awaited!
[name_u]Leslie[/name_u]

2

Interesting that [name_f]Maria[/name_f] is perceived as a “Latino” (i.e. Latin American?) name in the USA. In most European countries, [name_f]Maria[/name_f] is the normal form of [name_f]Mary[/name_f] and is one of the most common woman’s names.

3

as in Latin-American. Not sure if the term is used country-wide, but where I teach high school it is considered the most appropriate term.

I didn’t know that about [name_f]Maria[/name_f] in Europe… Interesting.

4

[name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is a fairly popular name in the UK. Here in the US, it does have many ties to the [name_m]Jim[/name_m] [name_m]Crow[/name_m] era, and would likely be perceived the wrong way by most people.

[name_m]Cohen[/name_m] is another hotly debated name that has the moderators watching like hawks on the forums. People get very touchy about that name, and I feel that their reasons for being so are quite valid.

I feel like cultural appropriation is a hot button issue in US culture… everyone from [name_f]Miley[/name_f] [name_m]Cyrus[/name_m] to [name_f]Victoria[/name_f]'s [name_f]Secret[/name_f] to high end runway shows has been getting some flack for it lately.

I think [name_m]Adolph[/name_m] is one of those names that is absolutely off-limits, for quite obvious reasons.

[name_f]Maria[/name_f] just sounds European. It could be any European culture, or Latino culture. It’s fair game for anyone.

I always thought [name_m]Guido[/name_m] was an ethnic/ racial slur…

I personally feel that it is inappropriate to name a child a name from a culture from which I do not claim ancestry. However, I would not say it is “racist” if parents choose a name outside of their ancestry/ culture. My name choices are generally limited to cultures from which my husband or I claim ancestry- [name_m]French[/name_m], Slavic (strong emphasis on Polish), and the UK, with a strong emphasis on Irish.

It seems like nowadays, (almost) anything goes with naming.

5

I sincerely apologize. 3 year old reaching at my computer!! I did not mean to repost a gajillion times!

6

I would agree with this.
I don’t think it’s racist to name your child something outside of your ancestry. There are definitely some names that are more associated with specific ancestries and I do feel they would be inappropriate to use–at least for me.
I don’t think I would judge someone for it unless I knew the reasons for their choice. For all I know they do have some link to that ancestry that I’m not aware of.

I personally wouldn’t do it because I feel that it can be limiting. That’s not always a terrible thing, but I’d want to give my child as many advantages as I can, and having a built in limit in their name seems counter-productive. There are a lot of culturally specific names that I love, but wouldn’t use.

As mentioned, [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] gets a lot of air time on the NB boards.
I’ve also seen blow-ups about [name_f]Gianna[/name_f].
[name_f]Fatima[/name_f] comes to mind, very popular in the Arab community.
Also, [name_f]Priya[/name_f] popular in the [name_f]Indian[/name_f] community

And as the OP said, there are a lot of names that are considered “Latino” or “Hispanic” where I live. They’re popular, but I’ve never met anyone without that ancestry who was named. [name_m]Jorge[/name_m], [name_m]Juan[/name_m], [name_m]Efren[/name_m], [name_m]Jesus[/name_m], [name_f]Martha[/name_f], [name_f]Nina[/name_f], [name_f]Maria[/name_f],etc.

I think most European names are up for grabs because no one is going to say, “Why did you name your kid [name_f]Bridget[/name_f]? You don’t look Irish!”
There there are some on the border–like [name_f]Greta[/name_f] or [name_f]Heidi[/name_f]–do you need to be Austrian/[name_m]German[/name_m]/Hungarian/etc to use them? I don’t think so, but I know it turns some people away.

7

[name_m]Don[/name_m]'t worry, I fixed it :slight_smile:

Regarding this topic, if I were forced to only pick names from my ‘culture’ then I’d be left with… what exactly… Catholic saints names and names of Celtic origin? [name_f]Kinda[/name_f] boring. I love and appreciate names from all around the world and I don’t think I’d be harming anyone if I called my son [name_m]Vasiliy[/name_m] (a Russian name) or even [name_u]Jory[/name_u] (a Cornish name) neither of which I have any connection to. In my opinion, as long as you do your research and use the name correctly (on the right gender, use the right pronunciation etc) then there shouldn’t be a problem; it shows you care about the culture surrounding the origins of the name you love. You should also make sure, first and foremost, that it’s actually a name in that culture and it isn’t just a word you’ve borrowed. Also check that the name isn’t offensive in any way and doesn’t have specific religious/sacred ties.

Basically:

[name_f]Luciana[/name_f] or [name_m]Vladimir[/name_m] = Sure go ahead.
[name_f]Ciel[/name_f] or [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] = Think again.

I definitely wouldn’t call choosing a name from a country/culture outside of your own racist.

A thought did occur to me before though, when we were talking about the use of [name_u]Rory[/name_u] on a girl. Is this a misuse of culture as I described above? Would, for example, the use of an Irish boy’s name on a girl, with the reasoning of (just an example, not pointing fingers) ‘it sounds girly’, smack of lack of research and/or respect for how names work in [name_f]Ireland[/name_f]?

8

I think part of it is that it’s difficult to reformat a name in your mind if you’ve associated it in a certain way for years.
If you grew up in a school full of male [name_u]Ashley[/name_u]'s, [name_u]Meredith[/name_u]'s, and [name_u]Lynn[/name_u]'s and female [name_u]Rory[/name_u]'s, [name_u]Dylan[/name_u]'s and [name_u]Drew[/name_u]'s then your perception of those types of names is going to be very different from someone who only knew [name_m]John[/name_m]'s, [name_f]Mary[/name_f]'s, [name_m]David[/name_m]'s, and [name_f]Sarah[/name_f]'s in their most common gender’s.

[name_u]Experience[/name_u] bias affects everyone’s opinions!
The only [name_u]Rory[/name_u] I’d [name_u]EVER[/name_u] been exposed to before Nameberry was [name_u]Rory[/name_u] [name_m]Gilmore[/name_m]–a girl. So I have to say that when I think of [name_u]Rory[/name_u] it feels feminine to me. I’ve since seen it used on [name_m]Doctor[/name_m] Who and in a few other places, so I’m aware that it is a male name, but it’s hard to upset the first exposure to a name.

9

Great point.

I’ve posted on the forums before that because my husband and I are not Jewish or [name_m]Christian[/name_m], we feel like any Biblical name would be off limits for us. Mythological names for our future spawn? Heck, yeah! :wink:

I have met people with names from another culture that seem almost out of place. However, when I ask about their name, I usually get a lovely story…
“My parents were studying abroad for a year in (country)…”
or
“My father worked as a doctor in (country)…”
or
“My mother’s best friend from (country) was named ____ and she wanted to honor her”

10

Interesting discussion!
I always thought that it’s ok to use a name outside your culture, as long as you know where the name comes from, it’s roots, meaning, background and pronunciation and use it appropriately. :slight_smile:
The names I like from outside my culture are all names that either the meaning of the name or where I first came across it or where the name comes from have some meaning to me, maybe not directly ancestral, but the name means something to me.

I don’t really know much about taboo names… I don’t think they should exist and names don’t hold racist or other negative images for me (other than disliking their sound or having a bad meaning), but I know they do to a lot of people, which is why you should research a name before using it, to know the background…

11

Exactly! All of which are stellar reasons for using a name outside of your culture!

While reasons like…“we really liked [name_m]Bowen[/name_m] but all 6 of our kids name’s start with C, so we picked [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] instead” facepalm

As for Biblical names, I think it really REALLY depends on what the name is. There are SOOO many names in the Bible and avoiding every name that appears in the Bible would mean cutting out a lot of names! For goodness sake, [name_f]Chloe[/name_f] and [name_m]Felix[/name_m] are in the Bible, but no one is going to assume you’re a fundamentalist if you introduce your son [name_m]Felix[/name_m]. Whereas, if I met a [name_m]Hezekiah[/name_m] assumptions would be made!

12

There’s a difference between disliking a name from another culture and disliking a name because it’s from a different culture. If you said, “[name_m]Guido[/name_m] sounds so Italian - gross!” that could be considered racist, but disliking something because it simply doesn’t appeal to you is just how it goes.

13

Yes, there are many gradations.

There’s, “Ick, I just don’t like that name.” Not racist.
There’s, “Ick, how disgustingly Italian that name sounds.” Racist and NOT how I felt!

but somewhere in between, there’s, “I’m uncomfortable with this name because it is sometimes used to insult or stereotype Italians.”

14

It’s really complex, and as you say there are gradations. Because there’s also, “I’m uncomfortable that people will assume my kid is Italian if I use this and I don’t want that.” Which may be racist depending on the tilt.

15

I’m very interested in this. I think using names from other cultures/languages/ethnicities is fine- a great deal of English names have roots in Greek, Old [name_m]German[/name_m] and Hebrew anyway. But, as mentioned in the other thread, I don’t think there should be double standards, e.g. A non-[name_m]Scot[/name_m] naming their son [name_m]Alasdair[/name_m] having a go at a non-[name_f]Indian[/name_f] naming their daughter [name_f]Indira[/name_f] sounds hypocritical and racist to me.

I definitely think there should be respect for these names though. Taking a foreign name that you think ‘sounds nice’ or ‘looks pretty’ then butchering the spelling/pronunciation/gender (as happens so often with Celtic names) gets on my wick, especially if people try to pass it off as the original. I think it’s quite arrogant and, as [name_u]Ren[/name_u] suggested, showing a lack of research & respect.

16

Some great points here, and I’m probably repeating a lot of what others have said, but here’s my $0.02.

    • As others have mentioned, I think it’s fine to use a name from another culture as long as you use it appropriately (like for the right gender, and without butchering the spelling/pronunciation). The English language has been influenced by many other languages, and more and more names are becoming normal for English speakers. There is no need to feel limited by your culture!
    • If you are using a name from a culture that’s not your own, however, you do well to do a little research. As a student of Mandarin, it bugs me when people will say, “[name_f]Mei[/name_f] is a Chinese name meaning beautiful”. Actually, the syllable “mei” can have many different meanings. Without a character or context, it’s meaningless. [name_m]Don[/name_m]'t choose a Hindi name that “sounds pretty” and then be shocked to learn it’s honouring a Hindu god. I mean, Google exists for a reason, right? :wink:
    • Always consider you’re naming an actual human. You might be 100% Welsh and love Gianluigi, but remember that for his entire life little Gianluigi will be asked, “So, are you Italian?” If you’ve got a great story, that’s cool, but it’s your kid that will be the having to explain 100x how his parents met on exchange in [name_f]Florence[/name_f]. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it, but you should think it through. One example: My husband has a name that is common on older Jewish men. It’s not Hebrew or biblical, but it was popular for Jewish boys in [name_u]America[/name_u] in the 30s and 40s. Despite the fact that my husband is Chinese, he is asked at least weekly if he is Jewish and why he has a Jewish name.
    • If I meet someone with a name that doesn’t “match” his/her cultural background, I always assume there’s some reason behind it and don’t find it weird. I mean, I am Belgian/English/Canadian, and I love Russian history and literature. Whose to say I can’t name my child [name_f]Natalya[/name_f] just because I’m not Russian? Influences for names can come from all over, and I don’t think we should let our heritage put us into boxes. :slight_smile:
17

This topic is definitely interesting! I agree with the majority of these thoughts, but have a specific question regarding [name_m]Cohen[/name_m].

[name_m]Cohen[/name_m] is my great-Grandmother’s maiden name. Although our family is not Jewish, and we have obtained very little information on our lineage to figure out where the surname originated, I love the sound of the name and the connection to my family. My grandpa guesses that, somewhere along the line, a [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] converted to Catholicism for marriage…but again, this is only a guess. I had been very seriously considering using the name to honor that side of the family until I read-up on it’s controversy.

I’m pretty certain of the answers I’ll get here… but I’m going to ask anyway. Is [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] off limits to me, even with the surname history?

Have a great day!

  • [name_f]Aggie[/name_f]-
18

I’ve noticed that sometimes when I hear a new name, think that it was just invented by the parents, which I typically don’t like, but then I find out that it’s actually from a different culture and I feel bad for jumping to conclusions. I’m trying to be more open-minded about names for that reason. I can’t think of a specific example but it’s happened multiple times, and it makes me feel kind of racist.

I like many names from different cultures, but I wouldn’t use a non-European name, just because I personally would feel weird about it. Not necessarily racist, but just dishonest somehow. Of course if that name or culture had a strong meaning for me, such as in the examples listed above (living in that country, honoring a friend, etc) that would be different, and if other people pick a name just because they like how it sounds, that’s up to them. I do think they have a responsibility to avoid things that are actually offensive to people of that culture though.

Some of the other posters on here are saying that it’s important to use the original spelling when using a name from a different culture, but what about if there’s a more-common (in your country) Anglicized version? Ex [name_f]Ashlyn[/name_f] vs [name_f]Aisling[/name_f], [name_f]Maureen[/name_f] vs Mairin, etc. From a purely practical standpoint it seems easier to use the Anglicized version, for pronunciation and spelling purposes, but is that disrespectful? Or, is it more disrespectful to use the original version when you aren’t really part of that culture?

19

I personally really like [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] as a name and would use it if my husband liked it. I had no idea it had any ties to any culture or heritage before coming on Nameberry and it’s never been brought up in real life before at all.

20

Good point. I think it makes sense in some cases to use a spelling that makes pronunciation easier in your language because of the differences in the pronunciations of some letters/letter groupings. For example, using [name_f]Catrina[/name_f] instead of [name_f]Catriona[/name_f], as English speakers will inevitably try to pronounce the ‘o’ and frequently correcting people could be too much hassle for some.

However, what I don’t agree with is respelling names that are already pretty phonetic or well known, or spelling a name so it sounds different to how it was originally meant to be, e.g. [name_f]Caitlin[/name_f] becoming [name_f]KATE[/name_f]-lin in English, opposed to the Irish [name_f]CAT[/name_f]-leen. I think there’s more of an issue there with arrogance, ignorance and lack of respect.