Race in Naming: Some Questions

I don’t think there’s a problem with using names that were commonly given to slaves, many of these are truly lovely names. [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is one I personally would not use. As someone previously mentioned, an Aunt [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] was a stock character in minstrel shows played by a white person in black face. It was a mammie character used to demean black women, similiar to calling a man an “Uncle [name_m]Tom[/name_m].” Since [name_m]Tom[/name_m] was a common name given to black and white men, it isn’t linked to minstrely in the same way [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is. While it seems we are far removed from slave days, these stereotypes and negative connotations still exist and carry painful memories for many people.

As an African American, [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is a name I would never give to my daughter. It carries racial baggage that was a reality older members of my family had to live through. I hope that as a culture we are moving in a more positive direction, so I don’t want to give my kid a name tied to a negative history of racism and stereotypes.

I think if you want to name your kid [name_f]Jemima[/name_f], more power to you. It’s valuable to know the history of any name you are going to use. It seems unlikely that a [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] in the next generation would be teased by peers for her name, and on a European American child it wouldn’t be so bad. It has a lovely sound, so if the history doesn’t bother you, go for it.

I don’t know if it’s common knowledge, but it is apparent even from looking up “Aunt [name_f]Jemima[/name_f]” on Wikipedia. As I said earlier, [name_m]Tom[/name_m] is so common that most people wouldn’t connect a [name_m]Tom[/name_m] with “Uncle [name_m]Tom[/name_m]”, but I learned about the term “Uncle [name_m]Tom[/name_m]” in history class in school and I don’t even live in the United States, so I would assume there are a lot of Americans, in particular African Americans, who still know those as offensive names.

I personally love the name of [name_f]Jemima[/name_f]. It’s a lovely biblical name that means dove in Hebrew. However, as an American, I’m not sure it is yet time to use the name. I really want it to get liberated here from its negative racial stereotype. I told friends I wanted to use the name and all of my friends had very negative responses. And they are used to my names which they all think are extreme. Not that the names I like are outside NB norm but my friends all have [name_u]Logan[/name_u]'s, [name_f]Grace[/name_f]'s and [name_m]Kaiden[/name_m]'s so I’m considered unusual. Besides the racial stereotypes, I got told that she would be made fun of because of the syrup. And at some point when my kids grow up and have kids of their own, she really would be an Aunt [name_f]Jemima[/name_f]. I wanted to use the full name of [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] and just call her [name_f]Jemma[/name_f] which I thought was a good compromise. My husband wasn’t going along with it so it didn’t happen.

All the other names you mentioned, especially [name_f]Sadie[/name_f], I think are useable. I hope that [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] will soon be usable too. I know there is an actress in Girls named [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] so I’m hoping that with some different associations, and us progressing as a nation away from our horrible history of slavery and segregation, this name will be able to be used again. It would also be nice if that stupid syrup/pancake brand would get renamed!

For what it’s worth, I asked a few of my friends here in [name_m]Ontario[/name_m] (high school or university age) what they thought of [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] and none of them said it was offensive. When I said that some people find it offensive, they didn’t know why until I told them. (None of them were black though; there aren’t that many black people in my area so that might make a difference.) I think usability depends on the community you live in. If there are a lot of black people, especially those who are descended from slaves, probably not a good idea. If you live in, say, a community of mostly [name_f]Asian[/name_f] immigrants, it wouldn’t be as much of a problem.

Yes, people relocate, but it’s impossible to prepare for every potential problem. There are probably lots of common English names that would be offensive, have bad meanings, or sound like bad/unpleasant words in other languages (though can’t think of any examples offhand).

I’m not referring to Irish Slaves, I’m referring to poor slaves from [name_f]England[/name_f]. And there were many. [name_m]Just[/name_m] as there are many “white” slaves in the prostitution ring today. Also, remember that many Africans were sold off by other “Blacks” in [name_f]Africa[/name_f]. Thus, I think it is dis-empowering to the African-American community to perpetuate the lie that they were always beholden to “whites”. This is not the case. Many were sold-out by their “[name_m]Black[/name_m]” leaders, just as “white” slaves were sold-out by their “white” leaders.

As for using the WWII analogy, remember there were Jews that also sent other Jews to the concentration camps. Furthermore, remember it was the official Jewish league in [name_u]America[/name_u] that were called upon to “take-in” the European Jews to [name_u]America[/name_u], but this Jewish league declined to save Europe’s Jews. In this way, this Jewish league has as much blood on their hands as the Nazi regime for their evil crimes against humanity.

Thus, what I’m saying is that evil is not bound by so-called “race”, nationality, color, religious affiliation. Evil individuals are evil whatever label they use. And being unethical is a personal choice. In this way, I am not a biological determinist philosophically speaking. I think it’s unethical to perpetuate historical lies too. People need the truth that brings unity & harmony and not divisiveness & disharmony. [name_u]Peace[/name_u] :slight_smile:

PS If you feel that the name [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is negative for whatever reason don’t use it…but if you love the name, use it!

Great post! :slight_smile: Although, I don’t think it should be an issue for any child…[name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is a lovely name & what happened in a few despicable minstrel shows a long while ago shouldn’t dictate the entire historical legacy of a beautiful name that means “dove”. But I understand what you’re saying. Maybe in a few more decades the name will be loved by all. Cheers :slight_smile:

I think it’s deeply intellectually dishonest to compare Judenrat who were in fear for their lives and the lives of their own children with the Nazis. Having to decide who lives and dies in your village (“do we send grandma to save the children”) is not the same or in ANY logical or factual way “as much blood on their hands” since they literally had Nazi guns at their head to make that choice, they weren’t doing it for the fun of it.

And I’d be fascinated to know which “official league” of American Jews - there have always been multiple leagues and organizations - declined refugees. Judaism has been decentralized for 2000 years. At the time immigration DID often require people who could financially support anyone coming over, and as you can imagine Jewish groups at the time were often desperate to get their own relatives and neighbours first. Jewish organizations at the time were actually criticized by many (including the anti-Nazi left) for being willing to do ANYTHING to get European Jews out of the hands of the Reich. Your rush to draw some sort of equivalence doesn’t seem based in much fact.

Oceansunrise, I don’t think anyone was trying to define the word “slavery” by narrowing it only to African Americans. When people (or “the media” as you say) refer to the time of slavery in this country (I’m in the US) they’re referring to specific historical events, not invalidating all other cases of slavery. Acknowledging the pain of one group doesn’t diminish the pain of others. But since we’re talking about [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] etc, we’re talking about enslavement of African Americans, right? [name_m]Just[/name_m] because Africans were involved in selling other Africans doesn’t change the fact that what happened in [name_u]America[/name_u] happened along racial lines. Nobody’s saying that it’s totally black and white, or that white people are inherently “evil” and people of color and Jews are saintly victims. All people have the capacity for evil. But I find it strange that you feel the need to dilute the horror of slavery in the US, or the Holocaust for that matter, by saying that people are too quick to point fingers (at slave owners? at Nazis? really?) or that white British slavery doesn’t get enough attention.

An interesting discussion, especially for someone like me who did not (does not) have a good knowledge of the historical context of some of these names.

All of those names mentioned by lesliemarion in her initial post are pleasing to me. Before I read beyond that first post, those names did not have any negative connotations in my mind. I did not know that many of them were considered “slave names”. Many of them I understood to be Hebrew and/or biblical.

I am Australian. As mentioned by previous posters, Jemima has been the name of a toy doll on a preschool TV show for at least 30 years. I think it’s a lovely name. I’d be interested to know why the TV show gave the doll that name. My next association would be with Beatrix Potter’s Jemima Puddleduck.

I’m not denying that there are or were white slaves or that no people of color were guilty in the slave trade; many different societies have practiced slavery throughout history and it wasn’t always (or even usually) racially based. However, the racial connotations of American slavery and of many given names are very real. The difference between white slavery and black slavery in [name_u]America[/name_u] is that black slavery was based on racism; not poverty, not opportunity, not happenstance, but race. People were enslaved because of racist systems, the remnants of which are still visible in many parts of [name_u]America[/name_u]. That is the reason this topic is important and taught extensively in schools.

I assume that by “biological determinism” you mean the reification of biological race. While you’re right in that race is not a biological or physical reality and is socially constructed, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It is a sociological reality, and a very important one, in many cultures including our own.

White pseudoscientists well into the 20th century tried to prove biological differences in intelligence and ability between races (without any success.) This race theory was, unfortunately, the shameful beginning of modern anthropology. It is intellectually dishonest to completely ignore the current and historical realities of institutionalized racism in the United States and the effects that may have on naming. This topic has been studied extensively in the disciplines of Sociology and Anthropology (including the sociology of “black” names,) and I would be happy to share some of those studies if you’re interested.

“[name_m]Race[/name_m] in Naming” - my first thought was two pregnant ladies both wanting to name their child [name_f]Sophia[/name_f], and racing to the delivery room. (I must be sleep deprived.) It took a second before I realized [name_m]Race[/name_m].

After reading the initial post, I thought of my 5 year old daughter. She loves to pretend her name is [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] and her brother is [name_m]Jeremy[/name_m] (the little girl and boy from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang). If she met a real life [name_f]Jemima[/name_f], she would think it was a really great name.

Please forgive my over simplification of a complex issue, but maybe these names are ready for a rebirth. Names (and words) can mean different things to different people. A younger generation will be able to see these names with a new connotation.

My name is [name_f]Jemima[/name_f]! I’ve never had anything but extremely excited and favourable reactions (basically any time I tell anyone my name!) I live in Australia, but even when I lived in [name_u]North[/name_u] [name_u]America[/name_u] for about six months, I didn’t get any negative reactions. I think it’s time to bring [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] back! I love my name :slight_smile:

Stripedsocks, please research the writings of preeminent scholars such as [name_m]Rabbi[/name_m] [name_m]Moshe[/name_m] Shonfeld and others. They advance the cause of truth & justice. [name_u]Peace[/name_u].

You obviously didn’t read my post. Because your recap of my argument is totally erroneous. I’m not diminishing the guilt of slave owners nor the Nazis, I’m highlighting the fact that certain African leaders and certain Jewish organizations/ individuals sold-out their own community members too. I made these points because another person raised the WWII analogy & I made a valid, relevant & truthful counterpoint.

Anyway, my point is, if you love the name [name_f]Jemima[/name_f], use it. If you don’t like [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] for whatever reason, then don’t. [/i][name_u]Peace[/name_u].

PS There is only one race, the human race. I’ve even read that anthropologists estimate that everyone on earth is at least a 4O-something distant cousin.

Exactly!!! Beautiful words & thoughts :slight_smile:

And were the African leaders that sold-out African slaves racist too???

So, why perpetuate the “race” issue as the central issue re slavery when it is in fact one facet of a complex injustice that involved many guilty parties represented by every nationality, religious persuasion, political ideology & creed? Not only does ‘mainline’ history push historical lies, it entrenches community divides & animosity. This is counterproductive to truth, transparency, sound scholarship, healing & creation of community harmony, not the name Jemima! Peace.

PS You may wish to read “Mismeasure of Man” by Stephen Jay Gould for greater elucidation on the topic.

PPS Remember that mainline “race discourse” has been (mis)appropriated in certain instances as a military stratagem. I’m sure you’ve heard of the ancient maxim, “Divide & Conquer”, have you not?

Very interesting discussion; thanks, everyone, for bringing a lot to this sensitive topic.

I think the issue here involving names is that the selection of these names by white slaveowners for African slaves was in fact racist: They chose Biblical and classical names that would both show off their own educations yet WERE NOT USED FOR WHITES. In other words, white slaveowners did not want their black slaves to have the same names that whites had. At the deepest level, the choice of these names was a racist act: these whites believed blacks were not equal to whites, were not fully human, and should be given names that marked them as separate and different.

These names were then passed down within African-American slave families and established as “black” names.

Many of these names are indeed lovely with fascinating history but their sad association with American white-on-black slavery might be too difficult to overcome – especially with a name like [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] which has further associations with post-slavery racism, whites making fun of blacks by ridiculing everything from their movements to their speech patterns to, yes, their names.

In fact, there’s a modern equivalent of this that someone sent me the other day, thinking (mistakenly) I’d be amused, about “football names,” with two white comedians introducing a roster of “football players” played by black actors introducing themselves with names like [name_m]Daquan[/name_m] and Jamiracle. “Football names” is code for “black names” and the real agenda of the video is to ridicule.

There’s another element to racism around the names widely used for slaves that I don’t think anyone has mentioned, which is that until the Age of Nameberry (I interpret that loosely), white people would not have DREAMED of using those names because they were “black names” and so inferior, unattractive, undesirable. In the U.S., names like [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] and [name_m]Amos[/name_m] that have more recent associations with black characters in racist popular culture venues may be a special case, but enough time has gone by that names such as [name_f]Sadie[/name_f] or [name_f]Dinah[/name_f] or [name_m]Cato[/name_m] are no longer associated with slavery by most people and have acquired other associations. [name_f]Oprah[/name_f] Winfrey’s dog is named [name_f]Sadie[/name_f]!

That doesn’t mean that racism and a racial divide (two different things, sometimes connected but not always) in naming is dead, just that the specifics have changes. Few whites name their children [name_u]Kenya[/name_u] or [name_f]LaKeisha[/name_f] or [name_u]Amadi[/name_u] – though they may be honoring older black heroes with names like [name_f]Ella[/name_f] or [name_m]Booker[/name_m] – while black parents in general don’t use such names as [name_f]Emma[/name_f] and [name_m]Jacob[/name_m]. There is a fascinating recent study by [name_m]Eric[/name_m] [name_m]Oliver[/name_m] on name choice by race, education, and political belief – Baby Names Reveal Parents' Political Ideology | Live Science – and of course Freakonomics also looked at parents’ name choice by race.

Actually, that sketch was done by Key and [name_m]Peele[/name_m], two black comedians (They’re the two men who play all the different football players, except for the one white guy at the end. The two white sports announcers are not comedians at all, just actors they hired to play bit parts). So while the video is meant to ridicule, it’s ridiculing something within their own culture that they find ridiculous, so no, I do not think you can compare that to white people using minstrel shows and blackface to make fun of black people.

And for what it’s worth, my husband and I are both mixed and have a very racially diverse group of friends who have all watched that sketch and everybody, whether they were white, black, [name_f]Asian[/name_f], hispanic, whatever, found it to be hilarious.

Are you serious, Shonfeld? Mostly quoted on sites that talk about Zionist Illuminati plots. Yeah, preeminent. That’s some interesting definition of “truth.”

Uh, because the issue wasn’t the broad topic of slavery in human history or centuries African slave trade, but rather specifically slavery in the US and its ongoing effects on modern society. The “one facet” you blithely dismiss had massive effects. No one said it was the ONLY aspect but it oughtn’t be ignored. You can’t talk about history in 19th and 20th C. [name_u]America[/name_u] without addressing that the “one facet” of one drop policies, laws against miscegenation, pseudo-scientific categorization of the hierarchy of races, or [name_m]Jim[/name_m] [name_m]Crow[/name_m]. These were, in fact, the “race issue” that I guess you find most convenient to ignore.

“Community divides” aren’t best bridged by ignoring history and frankly “community harmony” sounds like sticking your fingers in your ears and going la-la-la. You don’t create peace by simply insisting no one ever talk about the past unless it’s been re-sculpted into something more appetizing.

You can fetishize “non-mainline” history and a fake moral equivalence of equal guilt on all sides if you want but don’t get pissed when people refer to actual, you know, documented history. [name_u]Peace[/name_u], kumbaya, etc.

Very well-said, [name_f]Pam[/name_f]! Excellent post.

I think perhaps I’m not making myself clear. There is a huge difference between racist people and racist systems (including structural violence and institutional racism.) Much of the nature of institutional racism lies in its invisibility; oftentimes, no one is actively trying to discriminate against people based on race, there’s just a failure of the existing institutions to meet the needs of everyone of all races. This judgement is widely accepted and taught in anthropological and sociological theory, and that is where my education is. I have read Mismeasure of [name_m]Man[/name_m]; it’s a staple in undergraduate anthropology classes.The book absolutely refutes biological determinism, but the fact that biological determinism even exists shows the need to acknowledge institutional racism that has existed in [name_u]America[/name_u] since the time of its founding. And as a side note, this book does NOT say that race doesn’t exist; it says that race is a social reality, not a biological one. It is culturally defined; race is defined differently in [name_u]America[/name_u] than in South [name_f]Africa[/name_f] or Haiti, but that DOES NOT MEAN that race does not it exist at all. It means that race is culturally and socially constructed and has no biological basis.

I think I’ve taken the discussion a bit off-topic, so this will be my last post. [name_m]Just[/name_m] to conclude, I’m not saying that using the name [name_f]Jemima[/name_f] is racist or that people who like the name are in any way racially insensitive. I’m saying that it is potentially associated with structurally violent, racist SYSTEMS. I don’t know if the association is strong enough to make the name unusable; I don’t think that most people know that the name is associated with minstrelsy. I think that each parent needs to make their own decision on whether the association is too much for them and choose a name they know they’ll love.