[name]Just[/name] curious - why does everyone on Nameberry think they need a formal name and a nickname? We (as in those from [name]Britain[/name] and her colonies) would usually just name the child whatever it is to be called on the birth certificate - often these names do sound informal. My name is Jakki not [name]Jacqueline[/name] for example and it has never done me out of a job). I’m interested in this cultural difference. Please explain.
I don’t think that this is a universally American preference. In fact, just yesterday a friend (with a daughter named [name]Maggie[/name]. [name]Just[/name] [name]Maggie[/name]) was questioning the choice of another friend who named their child [name]John[/name] [name]James[/name], to be called [name]Jack[/name]. She was of the opinion that if you plan to call a child one name, that should be their real name. I, personally, would never name my child just [name]Jack[/name] (or [name]Maggie[/name] for that matter.)I would use it as a nn for [name]John[/name], because I prefer the formality of [name]John[/name] on the birth certificate. But I also know just [name]Milly[/name], just [name]Molly[/name], just [name]Ellie[/name], and just [name]Allie[/name]. The main difference in [name]America[/name] and UK nickname choices, [name]IMO[/name], is the -ie boys’ names. [name]Alfie[/name], [name]Georgie[/name], [name]Freddie[/name], etc. are all unheard of in the US as full names. I don’t really know exactly why that is. For myself, I just can’t picture ever sending out a formal birth announcement of wedding invitation with the name ‘[name]Alfie[/name]’. Shudder
I agree with the previous poster that it’s more personal than cultural- but there are more nickname-y names in the British top 100 than the American. Personally, I think it depends on the name. For example, it would be downright annoying to explain, over and over again, that [name]Molly[/name] is a nickname for [name]Mary[/name] to the many, many people who wouldn’t know. I think that in most cases, the formal name is the better choice. You don’t know your child when you name them, so you could never possibly know what their preferences will be. A [name]Katherine[/name] may decide that she wants to go by [name]Kat[/name], Kath, [name]Katherine[/name], or [name]Kate[/name], and no one would have a problem with it. But it would be a bit bizarre for someone named [name]Kate[/name] to decide she wants to be called Kath or [name]Katherine[/name]. That flexibility allows the child to decide their name, at least a little bit.
I don’t understand this “They should be named what they will be called” business at all. By that standard, no one should have middle names. People very rarely use their first and middle name together, so if you’re calling your child [name]Ellie[/name] and won’t give her a formal name because that’s not what she will be called, why bother with a middle name? And multiple middle names seem more common in the UK than the US- an interesting paradox.
I think this is a very interesting discussion and something I have been wondering about for a while, as I [name]LOVE[/name] British names and noticed that names like [name]Jack[/name], [name]Freddie[/name], [name]Harry[/name], and [name]Alfie[/name] are extremely popular for boys for example ([name]Freddie[/name] and [name]Alfie[/name] are two names that I am seriously considering too!)
I used to prefer full names, but after reading the birth announcements on the U.K Telegraph website for months, I’m beginning to change my mind. I actually think nicknames as the given name can be very charming, but I’m probably in the minority just like you are. Now, I think the only time I’d use a full name now is if I’m in love with the full name AND the nickname and can’t choose.
For example, I [name]LOVE[/name] [name]Henry[/name] and [name]Harry[/name] equally, so I would name my son [name]Henry[/name] and call him [name]Harry[/name]. But I definitely love [name]Alfie[/name] more than [name]Alfred[/name], so we would probably just name him [name]Alfie[/name].
For the record, my name is [name]Jenna[/name], not [name]Jennifer[/name], and am REALLY [name]GLAD[/name] my parents chose to put [name]Jenna[/name] on the birth certificate unlike a few girls I know who have [name]Jenna[/name] as a nickname.
Okay, so now I have a question for you: I’ve noticed that on the U.K Telegraph some parents will give their kids 3 or 4 middle names, some 2 middle names, and some none! Why is there such a huge variation in this? I’m American and I have some friends with no middle name, most with just one like myself, and only one person with 2. Why the difference?
Thinking on the boys’ nicknames vs full names discrepancy, I wondering if it may be a generational thing. In [name]America[/name], nicknames were the norm for men in the 50’s-70’s. [name]Every[/name] [name]Thomas[/name], [name]Henry[/name] and [name]William[/name] was [name]Tom[/name], [name]Hank[/name], and [name]Bill[/name]. So now, all of these NNs sound very dated and most parents call their children the full name. Conversely, I wonder if [name]Britain[/name] hasn’t recently come out of a full-name period (I admit I am not very familiar with older British popular names, but judging from what I read and see in movies, many older British men are called [name]Thomas[/name], [name]Henry[/name], [name]William[/name], [name]Martin[/name], [name]Richard[/name], etc.) and so now these names sound dated and parents are using the NNs to sound fresh and youthful.
Another interpretation of the phenomenon of Brits using NNs and Americans using formal ones, is that [name]America[/name] is a more upwardly mobile society, so there may be more class aspiration at play. I mean, if any one of our kids can be the President, his given name probably shouldn’t be [name]Georgie[/name].
OR, you could put aside all my conspiracy theories and just assume that Nameberries love names, and why not get two for the price of one?!
Really interesting thoughts on this. Is there an expectation in the US that one has a formal full name on job/university application? Actually I live in NZ not [name]Britain[/name] (but we are still much more influenced by [name]Britain[/name] than the US, although this is changing). But our culture is still perhaps more casual than both [name]Britain[/name] and the US. I think in regards to middle names it is very much about honoring our ancestry and in this is why you may get a long list of names.
“I don’t understand this “They should be named what they will be called” business at all.” Actually I didn’t say that. I just said we would name them on the birth certificate whatever they were going to be called, because in most cases this is true.
I am such a name geek, and so interested in the fashion of names, but it bores most of my family and friends so it’s nice to have you to talk to about it!
[/quote]Another interpretation of the phenomenon of Brits using NNs and Americans using formal ones, is that [name]America[/name] is a more upwardly mobile society, so there may be more class aspiration at play. I mean, if any one of our kids can be the President, his given name probably shouldn’t be [name]Georgie[/name].
OR, you could put aside all my conspiracy theories and just assume that Nameberries love names, and why not get two for the price of one?!
I added this to my first post while you were posting, Jakki. I think it speaks to your formal/informal culture suggestion.
[/quote]Another interpretation of the phenomenon of Brits using NNs and Americans using formal ones, is that [name]America[/name] is a more upwardly mobile society, so there may be more class aspiration at play. I mean, if any one of our kids can be the President, his given name probably shouldn’t be [name]Georgie[/name].
OR, you could put aside all my conspiracy theories and just assume that Nameberries love names, and why not get two for the price of one?!
I added this to my first post while you were posting, Jakki. I think it speaks to your formal/informal culture suggestion.
Yes, I was thinking about the upwardly mobile argument. It is probably true. Although I wanted to add that NZ is probably even less hierarchical then the US (although there is a growing wealth difference here that didn’t exist when I was growing up in the 70’s). Our country is so small that everyone knows everyone and it is relatively easy to be born in a State house and become the Prime Minister (as is the case with our current Prime Minister).
I completely agree with phoebesmom. It seems that everyone in my parent’s generation (born in the 50s-60s) goes by a nickname- my dad goes by [name]Dave[/name] and most of his friends are [name]Jim[/name], [name]Bill[/name], [name]Bob[/name], [name]Rick[/name], etc. Same with my mom, she has lots of friends named [name]Kathy[/name], [name]Missy[/name], [name]Susie[/name], [name]Patty[/name], [name]Debby[/name], [name]Pam[/name], etc. People naming their kids now will associate these nicknames with their parents generation, however, [name]Katherine[/name], [name]William[/name], [name]James[/name], [name]Robert[/name]- they all sound nice and fresh in full name form. And with the vintage name trend coming about, vintage nicknames are getting hot. Some parents might shy away from naming their son [name]Freddie[/name] or [name]Milly[/name] but [name]Frederick[/name] and [name]Amelia[/name] are fine because they have a classic sound with that vintage nickname- it appeals to the best of both worlds. And once this names get popular, the children bearing the names need nicknames- keep in mind the US is much bigger than the UK. For example, the number one boys name in 2008 was [name]Jack[/name] which accounted for 8007 babies. The number one name in the US in 2008 was [name]Jacob[/name] which accounted for 22,470 births. That’s almost three times as many boys in the US with the number one name. But since [name]Jacob[/name] can also go by [name]Jake[/name], which creates variation. This might have something to do with why in the US we tend to give longer names with nicknames. Same goes for [name]Isabella[/name]. She can go by [name]Isabella[/name], [name]Belle[/name], [name]Bella[/name], [name]Izzy[/name], Iz, etc. Same with [name]William[/name], [name]Olivia[/name], [name]Emily[/name], etc. Also I think that in our age of becoming less and less formal (texting, instant message, and blogspeak) parents find solace in giving their children more formal names. Personally I like formal first names and I’m not totally down with the “name them what you’ll call them” thing because in the end people will find a way to nickname them. My cousin named her son [name]Cole[/name] because she thought it would be totally nickname proof, but when [name]Cole[/name] was little he loved to climb on things, so everyone started calling him C-Monkey (like Sea Monkey) and he’s almost ten now and we still call him that. People (including his parents) call him [name]Coley[/name], [name]Coco[/name], and Cozy, so how is being called [name]Coley[/name] by close friends and family any different than a [name]William[/name] being called [name]Willy[/name] at home and being more the more formal [name]William[/name] at school or when he grows up. That’s just my personal opinion, I think [name]Alfie[/name] and [name]Freddie[/name] are really cute, but that’s just it- they’re too cute for me on an adult. I mean I guess an adult named those could go by [name]Alf[/name] or [name]Fred[/name] (which wouldn’t be all that different than a [name]Frederick[/name] going by [name]Freddie[/name] as a kid and [name]Frederick[/name] as an adult). But those don’t appeal to me, so I wouldn’t name my kids that. But I do like [name]Frederick[/name] and even [name]Alfred[/name] and those nicknames would be cute when their kids. [name]Hope[/name] that answers your question. Sorry it was long!
Yes, I was thinking that NZ probably did not have as much class-entrenchment as [name]Britain[/name], but, as you said, your styles are more influenced by British trends than US.
The bit about finding solace in formality is interesting!!! Hey believe it or not i know a man who legally changed his name to Naughty Sea Monkey.
And Phoebesmum you are correct - it is about following the mother country in terms of fashion.
This in an interesting and very observant thread. I am an American and do not like nicknames. I made sure all three of my childrens names did not have nicknames. I don’t mind an [name]Andrew[/name] being called [name]Andy[/name] or an [name]Elizabeth[/name] being called [name]Beth[/name] or [name]Liz[/name], but some of these farfetched nicknames I see on this site are too much. If you want your daughter to be called [name]Maisie[/name], name her [name]Maisie[/name] - not [name]Margaret[/name]. I know several people who named their sons [name]John[/name] but call them [name]Jack[/name] as another poster mentioned. [name]Jack[/name] is just fine on its own. I also am not fond of parents calling their children by their middle names but that is a whole different issue. Or even worse, naming a son [name]John[/name] [name]Edward[/name] but calling him [name]Ned[/name].
I agree with this (and I’m an American).
Well, many times the more far-fetched nn’s come about in families that name children after parents and want to avoid confusion. [name]John[/name] [name]Edward[/name], nn [name]Ned[/name], sounds like a family name with an individual nn. My husband, [name]Benjamin[/name] [name]Michael[/name], wants a [name]Jr[/name]. He already goes by [name]Ben[/name], I hate [name]Benjy[/name], and his uncle is [name]Michael[/name], so I am considering nn’s like [name]Mitch[/name] or [name]Chip[/name]. I would never put [name]Mitch[/name] or [name]Chip[/name] on ANYONE"S birth certificate, but it solves my problem of having a son with common family names.
As an American, I think that we just have a tendency to give nicknames to people as terms of endearment. Whether it be on a baseball field or in a classroom, friends and acquaintances always seem to find a way to shorten names or give pet names to people. Maybe as parents we just want to nip it in the bud by giving our children nicknames immediately, thereby foregoing any “unsavory” nicknames. If you name your son [name]Andrew[/name], maybe you prefer [name]Drew[/name] over [name]Andy[/name], so you call him [name]Drew[/name] from birth. Once people hear that, it’s harder for them to shorten it further or switch it to [name]Andy[/name]. Conversely, it’s much harder to maintain [name]Andrew[/name]. As soon as he starts school, people will shorten it, even if you remind them that it’s [name]Andrew[/name] not [name]Andy[/name], [name]Drew[/name], etc.
I think the only way to really avoid a nickname is to come up with a “nickname-proof” name – such as mine, [name]Laura[/name]. But, even then, friends find ways to call you something else (for example, DH (an avid [name]Lauryn[/name] [name]Hill[/name] fan) started calling me L-Boogie after we first met (that’s her nickname), or a friend who calls me “L”). Nicknames are just ways to personalize and make a relationship special.
I agree. I have a friend named [name]Nessa[/name], and that is her full name not [name]Vanessa[/name].
I posted at my blog some thoughts on this issue and how it changes over the generations (some esoteric language on generational issues there, and a link to a Nameberry competitor is given there):
If I’m correct, we (Americans) might be turning the corner and going for less formal names over the next few decades.
To [name]Linda[/name]: this is NOT the blog that I sent to you; I was going to post that first but this subject came up and I decided to compose this one and post it first instead.
This is a completely personal answer, I am in no way trying to explain the etiquete of baby names, but I choose a name with a great nn for two purposes.
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I love my name [name]Gabrielle[/name], but if people call me [name]Gabby[/name] one. more. time. Did you see the steam that came out of my ears there? I finally chose my own nn, given to those who are incapible of producing a three-syllable name from there lips and it’s [name]Bella[/name] (stemmed from my two best friends calling me Gabriellabelle, which was five syllables which they managed quite nicely.)
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I get to use another name! Celebrate! I love both [name]Elizabeth[/name] and [name]Eliza[/name] as an example, score!
Sorry if what I’m mentioning has already been said many times! (I didn’t have time to read all the posts)
I think nicknames just give a child more options and more ways to define themselves. It can also give them different options for different situations - for example, if you name your daughter [name]Alexandra[/name], she could go by [name]Alexandra[/name] with her teachers at school, [name]Alex[/name] with her school friends, [name]Lexi[/name] at home, and maybe Xanny with her best friend. If she was just named, say, [name]Lexi[/name], it would give her less options. For some people, they don’t want their child to have any nicknames, and so they choose names that limit nickname options or give their child a ‘nickname’ already. Some people like giving their child many options, so they will choose a formal name that has an easily accessible nickname or multiple nicknames. I think a lot of it is personal preference although it does seem to have some sort of connection with culture as well.
Oh, one more example: I know that nicknames are very popular in latino cultures. I lived in Chile for a few years after college, and almost every girl had a nickname. [name]Javiera[/name] was [name]Javi[/name], [name]Silvia[/name] was Silvi, [name]Consuelo[/name] and [name]Constanza[/name] were Coni, Macarena was Maca, [name]Katrina[/name] was [name]Kati[/name], [name]Sofia[/name] was [name]Sofie[/name], [name]Josefina[/name] was [name]Jose[/name], [name]Daniela[/name] was [name]Dani[/name], [name]Estefania[/name] was Stefi. I didn’t meet anyone who went by their full name, at least with their friends. [name]Even[/name] if [name]Constanza[/name] goes by Coni most of the time, [name]Constanza[/name] has way more meaning and substance than just Coni, so that’s probably why parents don’t just name their kids in nickname names. [name]Just[/name] thought this was another interesting cultural example.
- [name]Sydnee[/name]