Creative names, biases, etc

Fair warning–this is a very long one! But if you’re willing to read, I’d really love to hear your thoughts.

I’ve been thinking a lot recently about how subconscious biases stemming from racism and classism might show up in naming spaces. Nameberry is easily the most thoughtful, open-minded, and compassionate naming community I’ve had the privilege of participating in–I’m so grateful for you all, and I’m guessing I’m not the first person here who’s thought about this. I’d love to talk about it!

Lots of us like names that feel “distinctive” or “underused.” We’re comfortable borrowing from 19th century census records, mythology, our family trees, etc. to find names that feel unusual and special. But many of us—not just on Nameberry, but on virtually all of the name forums I frequent (often much more aggressively on the other forums)—seem to hold some level of disdain for so-called “creative” names. We can be skeptical and sometimes very critical of new spellings and variations of “traditional” names, and perhaps even more so of names that seem completely “invented.” I wonder why?

I’ll speak for myself in saying that familiarity does play a big role for me—I often like a name increasingly the second, fifth, and tenth time I see it. I also think a lot about ease and wearability of a name, and sometimes it does feel like picking the most popular spelling could make a child’s life a little bit easier. But all of that is so context-dependent, right? Whether or not a name is familiar, socially-acceptable, or easy to wear depends so much on the community you’re surrounded by.

And besides, those factors probably don’t account for all of our feelings about “creative” names. Because if they did, we’d also be reluctant to consider extremely unusual but “traditional” names—and by and large, we’re not. Maybe for some of us meaning plays a role. But then again, does a name really have to be searchable on Nameberry to have meaning? [name_m]Can[/name_m]’t it hold special meaning to the family that created it—just as much as a name with established dictionary roots?

Part of what I love about naming spaces is that each of us have our own unique style and taste. I’ll be the first to admit I have strong opinions! And for many of us, “traditional” or “old” or “classic” names may be our thing. I’m just trying to be cognizant, personally, of where my opinions are coming from. Does a name genuinely seem offensive or easily-tease-able? [name_f]Do[/name_f] I actually dislike the way it looks or sounds? Or are my implicit biases coming into play? The word “trashy,” for instance, gives me pause when it comes to describing names. That and lots of other coded language can be used to describe names that we’ve been subtly conditioned to dislike because of the social statuses we associate with them.

I know I’ve been guilty of letting subconscious biases influence my naming opinions myself, and it’s something I’m working on. And I still have plenty of questions about how to constructively and honestly express my opinions (when they’re solicited, of course!) while ensuring that they aren’t rooted in bias. I’ve found several interesting articles on the subject of name-related racism and classism recently; I’d be happy to share resources if people are interested.

But I’m also really curious to hear others’ thoughts on this! What is it about “creativity”—a word that usually has very positive connotations—that people can sometimes find off-putting when it comes to names? [name_f]Do[/name_f] you like creative naming styles? Have you noticed any variation in how widely accepted different naming styles are on different sites/forums? [name_f]Do[/name_f] you think we, as a community, could be more open-minded towards “creative” or “invented” names? Or do you disagree with me entirely that naming spaces tend to skew towards disliking creative names? I’d love to hear your musings, regardless!

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I agree that Nameberry is the most positive space I’ve encountered (and therefore the only one I’ve joined!).

However, I recognise that in myself - having a negative reaction to unusual spellings and “made up” names, and it definitely stems from classicism. I have to actively ignore the assumptions that the parents are “uneducated” or “trashy”, which definitely translates to “lower class”. I’m very uncomfortable with this part of myself and definitely don’t think all names should be forced to fit into the same, conformist middle class mould. I’m not happy with who gets to decide what’s tasteful and what isn’t.

(This is kind of a weird situation because I grew up in a rough neighbourhood and was surrounded by names that my culture considered to be trashy. [name_f]My[/name_f] name could have easily been one of them too had I not been given a much more traditional name after my grandma. I think I might be overcorrecting or subconsciously trying to distance myself from that past. Hmm.)

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This is a wonderful point!!! Thank you for talking about it. Definitely something I find myself thinking about a lot. I think a lot of it has to do on where we’re from, who we keep around us. Names that are boring and old to one person might be totally unfamiliar to another. I can never bring myself to call a name trashy outright, it is true that living in a racist and classist world, we need to be constantly addressing our biases- it’s important to learn from them! If I find myself thinking negatively about my name, I also ask why.
Names- as discussed in a recent Names and Culture post- are really important. Some people love their names right off the bat; others grow into them over time; some people change their names to better fit themselves! So I’m always hesitant- even when saying I don’t like a name, I try to choose my wording carefully- because as you said, names hold meaning for many people!
When it comes to “kre8tiv”- I am uncomfortable with this. I agree that I feel like creativity is used as a negative term in naming spaces. I think lots of times it can be sorta absentminded with no harm intended. But LOTS of times it can also be an indicator of our biases! For example- on name sites, lots of names which are considered “black” or hold very strong meaning in the african american community are often 1) separated and categorized, with both positive and negative reactions or 2) subtly looked at with disdain. Lots of names that aren’t eurocentric are considered “weird” or hard to pronounce. One quote that I really love is something that the actress Uzo Aduba’s mother said to her as a child- “If they can learn to say Tchaikovsky, and [name_m]Michelangelo[/name_m] and Dostoyevsky, they can learn to say Uzoamaka.” It’s important that all names get air-time when it comes to discussion and thoughtful examination- dismissing a name right off the bat because it’s trashy or low-class or “black” (as I’ve heard too many people, most not on nameberry though say) is something which we must actively work to combat, beginning with ourselves.
I would love to read some of the articles you talked about :slight_smile:

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I definitely agree that biases creep into my thought process massively. [name_f]My[/name_f] grandparents actually gave my dad the ‘[name_f]English[/name_f]’ version of his name rather than the Welsh because at the time Welsh people were considered to be primarily uneducated country folk. When picking mine and my brother’s names he really wanted something Welsh, but ultimately decided against it because he realised that people would butcher the pronunciations. He wanted to call me [name_f]Myfanwy[/name_f], which means beloved, but he hadn’t spotted the numerous chances for teasing, so mum, who said the name was somewhat lacking in vowels, vetoed. So maybe her biases saved me from a lifetime of teasing and correcting people.
I also feel as though creative spellings have a ‘limit’. I met siblings called Kaylib and [name_f]Jezika[/name_f] who pronounced their names [name_m]Caleb[/name_m] and [name_f]Jessica[/name_f], and I couldn’t help but feel sorry for them precisely because they were going to spend so much time correcting people on the spelling!

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I hear you. I do find it interesting that, in some cultures, unique/creative/invented names are prized, but on Nameberry those types of names tend to be viewed negatively. I think there is quite a lot of bias towards names that are seen as upper class and [name_f]English[/name_f] or American. I feel there needs to be more awareness of this issue, and more sensitivity shown towards it.

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I’m so grateful for these thoughtful responses–thank you all.

@Luminen I love this: “I’m not happy with who gets to decide what’s tasteful and what isn’t.” Such a great point, and a great way of explaining how power structures that exist in other aspects of society (unsurprisingly) creep into naming. Your question about whether you might be “overcorrecting” for your own experience with names and social class is also very interesting.

@dejectedpiglet “Names that are boring and old to one person might be totally unfamiliar to another”–so true! Our contexts and backgrounds are so important to how we view names. I also love the quote you shared from Uzo Aduba’s mother. So important to remember that there’s no reason, objectively, that any of those names are “more difficult” than the others. Your reference to the Names and Culture post is also so relevant. I’m glad we’re able to have those kinds of conversations here! I’ll add another reply with some articles.

@lyrasoxford It’s definitely interesting to consider whether there’s a line between creative and “too” creative. I often try to think about whether I would want a name for myself–and if I’m honest, there are plenty of cases where I think I’d prefer having the most common spelling of a particular name. But on the other hand, it might depend whether the spelling was meaningful to my parents. And it could also completely depend on where I live and naming “norms” in my community. And so many other factors! So the simple question of whether I’d want the spelling for my own name often doesn’t seem to be enough.

@choupette I totally agree with you that values around naming seem to vary widely in different spaces! Part of what I find so interesting is that it’s often in spaces where people think a lot about names and are open to a wide variety of unusual names that I see a general dislike for so-called “creative” names. I’m thankful for Nameberry being one of the most open-minded naming spaces I’ve found on the Internet (if not the most!), but you’re so right that we can and should more aware and more sensitive.

Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts! I’m so grateful and excited that people are open to having these conversations.

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Here are a few of the articles that I’ve read! I haven’t screened them for “perfection”; they’re just resources that I’ve found interesting or gotten a new perspective from. Most of these I found when they were shared on Nameberry or other name blogs originally! I’ll share more as I’m able to find them again.

CW: Racism, classism

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I actually have a name that, for a while, was catching a lot of backlash on name forums (this is about 10 or so years ago?) for being “trashy” and I still see comments like this about my sister’s name regularly, so I guess I’ve always been a bit more sensitive, or tried to be a bit more sensitive to creative names and biases. I actually love creative names, but I tend to steer away from them because I have a hard time with social anxiety, and I don’t like the idea of choosing a name that would catch a lot of flack. I love enough different styles that I can just shift focuses and it’s not a problem for me - but I know others don’t have the same experience.

I can’t speak to the racism aspect, but the classism in names, I’ve 100% experienced on name forums (although I don’t believe comments on my name were made on NB, but my sister’s name has had a few not-so-nice comments in the past). I think the most memorable comment was that my name and my sister’s name were “most likely to be high school dropouts” - we’re both honours students, and both are currently working on our second college diplomas :woman_shrugging:

I guess because as a young teen, I saw a lot of negativity about my name, I found it really offensive, and now I try my hardest to avoid using terms like “trashy” or “stripper names” because, if nothing else, it’s just hurtful. You can respectfully explain distaste for a name without using adjectives/phrases like these.

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@leafsgirl44 Thank you so much for sharing. [name_m]How[/name_m] awful that people have been rude about your and your sister’s names–and it certainly makes sense that that experience would affect how you move forward! I absolutely agree with you that terms like “trashy” and “stripper names” are completely unnecessary, unproductive, and unkind. And I completely relate to what you said about steering clear of certain names for fear of getting flack from others–I’m working on that! Thanks again for your thoughtful, important perspective.

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I agree that there is definitely some inherit bias within the Nameberry community. I’m fairly sure many of the users are a homogeneous bunch: largely white and European and of European descent, so the names that are appealing and ordinary to many on this forum are largely representative of that group’s culture(s). I’m definitely guilty of allowing the naming conventions of where I have lived and communities I am a part of color my preferences in naming. Although I’m sure there are people on here who are well versed on names from all kinds of communities around the world, I can’t say I am one of them, and many others on here aren’t either. Names that are unfamiliar or strange to us that may be more ordinary in another culture aren’t favored as much.
Additionally, Nameberry’s archive is more exhaustive for more Western names. There’s also definitely some classist undertones (though rarely meant) to the kinds of names generally accepted here.
Thank you so much @dandy_orchid for sharing those resources.
@leafsgirl44 I’m sorry people have been rude about your family’s name, and I understand why you might shy away from more creative names to avoid coming under fire. It seems like name shaming leads to more (possibly well meaning and concerned) name shaming. Once people are unkind about a name, others speak up against the name in order to save people from that unkindness and strife, which just furthers this.

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@almostactually I definitely agree with you that familiarity plays a big role in preference! I don’t even necessarily think that’s a bad thing. I guess where I see a potential problem is when some “unfamiliar” naming styles tend to receive more negative reactions in name spaces, whereas others are more likely to be embraced as “unique,” if that makes sense. One of my goals now is just to learn more about names and naming conventions from other cultures and communities, to increase my own familiarity with them. Of course, in some cases these names wouldn’t be appropriate for me personally to consider using (the Names and Culture thread comes to mind). But even if I shouldn’t use them, learning about names from different backgrounds is very interesting and beneficial for expanding my own mindset. I know some people here have a lot more expertise in this, and I always enjoy reading their threads. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts–I really appreciate it! :slight_smile:

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There’s definitely a double standard. You’re also right that it’s not always appropriate to use all names, even if it’s nice to know them and round out your style with them!

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@12queen, I totally agree with you that words like “tryndy” and “trashy” can feel very harsh. I won’t even get into my feelings about unsolicited “advice” on already-chosen names, because that’s something I thankfully don’t see here very often. When it comes to solicited, wanted opinions, I get that not everything will appeal to everyone, and that’s what makes places like NB interesting and useful! But we can always find ways to share our thoughts without resorting to words (like the ones you mentioned) that can have some pretty questionable and offensive associations. I’d say overall I’ve seen much less use of that type of language here than on some other name sites, but it’s something to be aware of. I’m glad you’ve found so many great names you love, and thanks for sharing your experience!

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I’ve been lurking a little on this thread and I really appreciate @dandy_orchid for creating this space to openly discuss these issues. I wanted to take the time to gather my thoughts properly before posting, hence the lurking!

A lot of my attitudes towards “creativity” in names and name spelling is practical, I grew up with a name that is constantly misspelled and I’d rather not force that on any future humans. That being said, after reading a lot of the discussion in this thread surrounding personal meaning, and how names evolve over time, I feel that I should be more open to so-called “creative” names in the future. After all - all names were invented at some point! I was actually discussing my own name with my mum last night and she told me about her feelings when she gave me my name, the personal meaning behind it and how she wanted me to have a unique name (her name is very common). It made me feel a lot closer to my name and gave me a better understanding of the process of choosing a name for your offspring.

With the issue of racial bias, I have definitely noticed some traditional names from [name_f]Asian[/name_f] and African cultures appearing on lists of “Names you should never use!!” before, cited as being strange or made-up, despite being steeped in history, culture and meaning. Thankfully that sort of thing doesn’t seem to happen much on Nameberry. I do agree with a previous poster that Nameberry could be more diverse with its listings, fortunately there are names from multiple cultures listed on here, but I often find it harder to find the meaning behind my non-white friend’s names.

When someone asks for an honest opinion of a name I don’t like, I would usually say I’m not a fan / it’s not my style / not my cup of tea, etc. A lot of the time on the forums I use the motto of “Nothing nice to say? [name_m]Say[/name_m] nothing!” I would never say I hate a name, or call a name disgusting / trashy / etc, and I usually include a “but if you love it, go for it” with any of my negative comments. I haven’t seen a ton of horrid comments on here fortunately, but it does happen and it makes me sad. I did see a post a little while ago over on the blog, berating “horrible” names from the past, which I thought wasn’t really necessary. Yes we all love to joke about Victorians calling their children Toilet and Yeast, but [name_f]Cherry[/name_f] and [name_f]Prudence[/name_f]? (They were both on the list.) I know a [name_f]Cherry[/name_f] and she really suits her name. I did want to comment this on the post but unfortunately blog comments weren’t working properly for me at the time.

Thank you again for making this thread @dandy_orchid! You have brought important issues to light and given us a space for discussion, as well as changed my perspective on creativity in naming and inspired me to be a bit more creative with my own name choices.

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@floatinthesky Thank you so much for commenting–I’m really glad to hear your thoughts. And I’m so glad that reading this inspired a conversation with your mom about your own name! I also have a name that’s often misspelled/mispronounced and that most people haven’t heard of, and to be honest, I hated it as a kid. [name_m]Even[/name_m] though I like it now (and have benefitted from a lot of social privilege that has protected me from judgments against my name), I relate to what you said about that experience affecting my name preferences for future kids. But I’m also trying to branch out a little more! I love this: “All names were invented at some point!” So true. There’s nothing inherently bad about inventing a name–we would have a very, very small selection of names to choose from if plenty of people hadn’t already taken the creative route throughout history! And so important to recognize that just because I (or Nameberry) may not know the origins of a name, doesn’t preclude it from “being steeped in history, culture and meaning” by any stretch. Thank you again for this thoughtful comment, you’ve brought up so many great points! :slight_smile:

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I agree that we should be more accepting of creative names. I feel like NB has been pretty good with not insulting other people’s names from what I’ve seen so far on these forums. I haven’t seen people calling other people’s names trashy so I guess I haven’t been lurking around on NB enough. I think I do remember seeing some NB opinion blog/article a few years ago talking about which names are off-limits though. Overall, I love that NB seems pretty civil for the most part. There’s still bias but if people don’t like a name, NBs usually just respectfully say “it’s not my style” and sometimes even “but if you love it, go for it” like what @floatinthesky said and I love this about NB.

Outside NB though, I’ve see people including childfree people and some of my own family members trash talk about what other parents’ are naming their kids. The childfree fb group I’m in often excuse their judgement in saying how they feel bad for the kid but they are still extremely rude when talking about it. Seeing how some of these people can be so hateful about this makes me wonder if our society (I live in the US but the fb group is not) can ever be more accepting of “creative” names. It is also a shame that the more “creative,” “ethnic,” and female sounding names are discriminated against including in the workplace when looking for jobs.

I think everyone has unconscious biases so I’m sure it affects me as well when looking at names but I have tried looking into names of other languages (generally have to look outside NB) and have made up some names (though many times it turns out it was already a name somewhere in the world) of my own. I think what some creative names turns me off are certain characteristics or letters I don’t like such as not liking the look of having “ee”. On one hand, I like that “ee” makes it clear how that part of the name is pronounced but I just don’t like the look of it and prefer the letter “i”. But this is just a personal preference for my own names and children and other people can do as they please if they love it that way. On the flip side, there are some common names that I don’t care for for the same reason but then like it once I change the spelling to my liking.

Hearing a name multiple times can sometimes make me like it more or at least tolerate it but I think for most names I don’t like, I still don’t love them years later after hearing/seeing it a dozen times. I still intend to try to use this repetitive psychology on some names I like though; hopefully when other people see so many times, they will warm up to it lol

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I think [name_f]Cherry[/name_f] is a really cute name. I suspect it was on the “horrible” list blog because it’s associated with “strippers.” I had met a [name_f]Cherry[/name_f] in college and people were “wait, is [name_f]Cherry[/name_f] really your name???” and [name_f]Cherry[/name_f] would say “yeah, my parents gave me a stripper name.” Edit: it’s also an old slang for hymen

Not sure why Prudence is on the list though.