I have a problem. [name]Ever[/name] since I was little, pretty much every other name I loved has people saying immediately “Oh, no, you don’t want to use that…don’t you know that it means (fill in the blank) or that some pseudo-historical woman with that name got called a harlot two thousand years ago?”
Beautiful names like [name]Delilah[/name], [name]Salome[/name], [name]Jezebel[/name], [name]Lilith[/name], [name]Circe[/name], etc.
Is it fair that these names are shackled with lots of crazy historical and emotional baggage? After thousands of years? I thought that now might be a good time to discuss the status of these names in our societies. Surely, feminism has given us the opportunity to free ourselves from the stigma previously associated with strong womanhood? Or is there more in play here than the traditional fear of strong womanhood?
There are very few boys names that are unusable because of an “aura” of licentiousness surrounding them. You have to do something inhumanly evil to get your name off the boys’ useable list. [name]Judas[/name], Pilate, [name]Lucifer[/name], [name]Adolph[/name], spring to mind.
I hope I don’t sound too political, because I don’t see this as a political issue. It just ticks me off that some names are completely off limits for no good reason.
I would use [name]Lilith[/name] but [name]Lilith[/name] and [name]Jezebel[/name] are millions of miles apart for me.
In fact I would argue [name]Jezebel[/name] was a lot more inhumanly evil than Pilate? I don’t get that reasoning at all. Pilate was just spineless and unwilling to stand up.
Sure the current pop-culture image of [name]Jezebel[/name] is just “painted [name]Jezebel[/name]” and some sort of assertion she was a sexy badgirl whore like a Bronze Age Catwoman or something, but the reason she was originally reviled wasn’t for being “naughty” or “standing up to men” it was because she was a murderous tyrant.
That’s just me though. I don’t think feminism is about ignoring that some women are truly horrible.
[name]Hope[/name] I didn’t offend you. I’m just saying that as a feminist - and one who has [name]Lilith[/name] on her babyname list at that - I don’t see all your listed names as all the same.
From the girls’ names you mentioned, the only one that stands out for me in terms of “un-usability” is [name]Jezebel[/name]. BUT, the association with that name for me is the short story, “Super Dooper [name]Jezebel[/name]”, by [name]Tony[/name] [name]Ross[/name]. I’m aware that there is a biblical association also, but having never read/studied the bible, or ever been to church [save for a wedding or funeral here and there], I wouldn’t be able to tell you who she was, or what she [allegedly] did/said etc.
I really love [name]Delilah[/name] actually, and its on my list!
Of course women can be just as wicked as men, there’s no question of that. You’re right that Pilate and [name]Jezebel[/name] aren’t in the same league (I mostly added Pilate to round off the list), but I feel that [name]Lilith[/name] and [name]Jezebel[/name] are at least equals.
As far as I can tell, [name]Jezebel[/name] was a princess who later became queen, she was devoutly pagan and had some Jewish prophets slain. So far, so bad, but I don’t think that’s the reason most people have negative associations with the name today, however. I think most of the reason [name]Jezebel[/name] is out of favor (as you so rightly point out) is because of its association with perceived vanity and sexual promiscuity. Ask the average person on the street what he or she thinks about the name and probably one in five thousand will mention the word tyrant.
Phonetically it’s so pretty, too!
Murderous tyranny doesn’t stop people from naming their sons [name]Caesar[/name], or [name]Cesar[/name].
(I think Ceaser is a terrible name, to be fair. I might be weird but at least I’m consistent!) You’re right it doesn’t stop people from doing it, overall, of course it doesn’t stop everyone from naming their kid [name]Jezebel[/name] either. It would stop me though, I think.
I should have added the caveat: I am religious. I think of murder and of religious oppression and of, at the end, her body being left to be eaten by jackals. If she was just dancing around in spandex booty shorts in my mental image, I probably wouldn’t avoid it with as much visceral “yuuuck” as I do in real life.
I don’t mind [name]Lilith[/name] because her role of [name]Adam[/name]'s first wife doesn’t paint her as a murderer, just as rather proud. In some ways, I see her almost as a precursor to [name]Vashti[/name] - a non-Jewish woman in the Bible who is held up as virtuous, because her dignity and pride resulted in the divorce and the king’s eventual marriage to [name]Esther[/name], and we (Jews) wouldn’t be here if she hadn’t done that. That interpretation of [name]Lilith[/name] is not mainstream but then again I’m not sure how many random people on the street would think of [name]Lilith[/name] as [name]Adam[/name]'s first wife at all?
For me [name]Jezebel[/name] of the Bible, I don’t like that association especially how it ended for her, it also has further negative image as someone with loose morals, but It also reminds me of a girl in the books Disney after Dark. The girl witch is named [name]Jezebel[/name], I think she was mean though…I don’t think a little girl would like those assocations, and she will get them sometime in life.
ETA: plus just type [name]Jezebel[/name] in goggle and see what pops up it’s very bad.
[name]True[/name], many people hear [name]Lilith[/name] and think witch or demoness.
I get the associations you have of the name [name]Jezebel[/name] are dark and unpleasant, and they are for many people. For you, clearly an educated and well-read person, the reason you have a visceral reaction to the name is likely to be different than the reasons why others who do not share your breadth of cultural references may shy away from the name.
I agree, if it were just about booty shorts and makeup, we wouldn’t be having this discussion so there is definitely some “there” there, I’m just trying to figure out to what extent that should make a pretty name off limits for modern use.
[name]One[/name] person says pride and virtue and dignity, another person says intransigence, obstinance, and superiority. [name]Lilith[/name] is used as a generic term for demon in several passages in the Bible ([name]Isaiah[/name]) usually in the context of a list of animals or a bestiary. I like the name a heck of a lot, but it’s been used for a demon in so much of our Western literature and culture, and is so intrenched in our collective mindset as being demonic and dangerous that it is a little harder to use.
That’s too bad, because it isn’t personally the image I get when I hear the name, myself.
There are a few boy names, like you said. I immediately think back to childhood when I liked [name]Damian[/name] and [name]Dante[/name]. I was always told that [name]Damian[/name] was another name for the Devil, but didn’t learn until adulthood that it was mistakenly connected with the Greek word “daimon” from which the word “demon” is derived. And, I suppose [name]Dante[/name] was just a “bad” connection to [name]Dante[/name]'s Inferno? I don’t know, I was born and raised deep in the Bible Belt. But, it still seems (save one or two) that you do hear of people using the “bad” boy names.
I thought it was the silliest thing in the world. There have been bad people of all names throughout the years, why did some of them get outlawed? There’s lists and lists of serial killers from history and others who have done truly Evil things on massive scales. Why are their names still on Top 100 charts?
I really like [name]Delilah[/name] and [name]Lilith[/name]. And I think [name]Jezebel[/name] is really missing out at the moment with all of the trending toward [name]Isabelle[/name] and [name]Annabelle[/name] type names. I think a little [name]Jez[/name] or Jeze would be adorable!
I don’t think that naming a child something in particular would be “ignoring” that someone famous from history (man or woman…feminism or not) is/was a horrible person. [name]William[/name] the Conqueror wasn’t the nicest fella, but “[name]William[/name]” didn’t take a hit. And in other cultures that I’m not overly familiar with…I’m pretty sure that there have been a few Really bad [name]Vlad[/name]'s through history, but “[name]Vlad[/name]” isn’t out of the world-wide mix. I totally agree with the OP.
I knew a ton of Dantes growing up. Like, batches of them. But I lived a pretty Italian-Greek area so maybe that was it. I’ve always been rather partial to the name. I also knew bunches of Igors growing up from the local Russian popular and they were the ones who, unfortunately, got crap about their names.
[name]Even[/name] though the bad image of [name]Jezebel[/name] goes back thousands of years, it’s very relevant and current in a way to Christians. Personally I have no problem with [name]Lilith[/name], I knew an adorable dog named [name]Lilith[/name] so I have a good association.
The difference is that [name]Jezebel[/name] has been turned into a word. Whether you know the Bible or not, if you’re American you know that a “jezebel” is a bad person. [name]Just[/name] as [name]Judas[/name] has been turned into a word and means a bad person
You can use it, but you won’t be the one having to live with a name that means wretched, loose, evil woman
[name]Lilith[/name] is not in the [name]Christian[/name] Bible. Some people make assumptions that she is being referenced but the actual name"[name]Lilith[/name]" is never mentioned
There is more than one [name]Salome[/name]. There’s the evil [name]Salome[/name] and there’s the wife of [name]Zebedee[/name] who may be the same [name]Salome[/name] that was at the Crucifixion
People are becoming more comfortable with [name]Delilah[/name] but her name was not turned into a word like [name]Jezebel[/name]
I agree with nat108. I think [name]Jezebel[/name] has a nice sound, but even though I’m not a christian, I’m familiar with calling someone a [name]Jezebel[/name] is the same in modern culture as calling someone a whore. When you call someone [name]Judas[/name] or [name]Benedict[/name], even if people don’t know the stories, they know they’re bad people. [name]Pandora[/name] will always be associated with [name]Pandora[/name]'s Box and I would never use her name, but other people are okay with it. A close family friend named his son [name]Lucifer[/name] and he gets half horrified looks and half respect and [name]Lucifer[/name] holds up well and vehemently defends his name. His dads thing is that theologians have never connected [name]Lucifer[/name] and Satan in the bible, please no arguments, it’s just the truth. I also know a little girl just born named [name]Lilith[/name] and the same family has a Thanatos, which is the personification of Death.
I love [name]Damien[/name], which many associate with the devil, but if people don’t use it, it will never get past that association. I love [name]Morrigan[/name] and [name]Morgana[/name] and [name]Lilith[/name], as well as [name]Napoleon[/name], [name]Caesar[/name], Alastor (which is a general name for a demon or bad person in Greek). I love [name]Persephone[/name], which most people find too dark, but they don’t bother to get the other side of the story that she’s the [name]Goddess[/name] of [name]Spring[/name] Growth and is responsible for flowers and springtime…
My point is, for some names, I don’t think there’s much coming back from the bad side, but for others, [name]Pandora[/name] is all bad to me, but other people look at the other side of the story, an overly curious girl who made a mistake and I understand that, people need to look at the other side of names sometimes.