Thoughtful response. I might just be too burned out at the end of a hard school year to delve into the subject now.
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No worries. I mostly just want people to stop being so defensive/angry when they think theyâre being âcalled outâ for something, or anyone has a suggestion for positive progress in the world (not saying you were doing that, just remarking upon my mission). People just want to be heard when they say that something is cultural appropriation or it is offensive to them. I mean, how easy is it to just listen and then not do what hurts them, right?
Anyway, best of luck with your studies!
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I think if youâre in [name_u]America[/name_u] itâs a slightly different issue than everywhere else in the world. You have a large melting pot of cultures that are mostly made up of descendants of immigrants rather than first-generation immigrants. This creates sub-cultures that have their own views about their culture that often differs from those of people who live in those countries. A good example is African-American culture, many African people do not share the same beliefs about cultural appropriation that is shared in America; what is seen as cultural appropriation in the US may be seen as cultural appreciation in African countries (not everything and by everyone, of course).
An Italian might feel differently about someone using an Italian name than an American-Italian and within religious communities, there are often different opinions as well. One Muslim might want to keep you from using an Arabic name, while another person will encourage you to use it. The same goes for other religions, and I would not say that the person that takes offense is more important than the one who wants you to use it - that would be validating one personâs belonging to a group more than another (e.g. if an extremist religious group says that names belonging to that religion are only to be given to children from that religion while your neighbour, who also belongs to that religion but does not share the extremist views, tells you itâs totally fine to use it, should you really validate the extremistsâ beliefs over the other personâs ?).
Itâs a really difficult topic and in the end, you need to make that decision for yourself. Personally, I am of the belief that we should be more open about culturer rather than trying to gate-keep everything but there are some people that do not share this view and thatâs okay.
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But then we would end up in a world where we canât do anything anymore. One still needs to take a critical look at another personâs opinion (including feeling offended) and decide, not if itâs a valid opinion, it totally is, but if itâs something that actually needs to be considered for a specific decision.
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Exactly. And I feel this applies greatly to choosing names. Just look at how many people come onto the forums and say along the lines they told their name ideas to their family and now theyâre so disheartened because all their choices were picked apart.
While itâs important to put careful consideration into the names we choose I firmly believe itâs dangerous to try and adopt the thinking of âif anyone anywhere is offended by the nameâ then to stay awayâŚ
Just spending time of the forums I could tell you such thinking would easily erase the hard to say names, the hard to spell names, unisex names, biblical names, overly feminine names on boys and too masculine names on girls. Gone would be the names like Ophelia for sounding like I feel yea and Seamus for sounding like Shame us. I mean what if I wanted to name my child Trump or Obama? And thatâs just the beginning.
Please apply careful thought and consideration and research but our names arenât meant to make everyone happy.
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So. For me, I wouldnât do it. I connect to the history of names within cultures I claim as my own. That said I wouldnât care about someone who wasnât Polish or [name_m]German[/name_m] using one of those names, I would probably think it is really cool or sweet. But, you canât always tell what ethnicity someone is by looking and I would assume they chose the name because they connected to I and felt it was meaningful for them, and thatâs whatâs really important.
[name_f]Do[/name_f] you think it can be a problem to pick names from outside of your own culture just because you could misunderstand the context something exists in and like I donât know, accidentally name your kid vagina. So I really caution people to research and understand the name before using it for a human child. I can also see how it could be disrespectful for some communities and I just donât think you should do it. But I wouldnât get mad or confront someone about doing it.
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Spoken just like a person who comes from privilege.
As I stated above, itâs about personal ethics more than anything, just know that thereâs a collective set of ethics, even if theyâre not all laws, in a society, too.
People, please think. If you donât care enough or canât take the time to listen to someone who wants to be called a different pronoun for instance, or not use a baby name that is sacred to their religion or culture and not connected to you in any way, then progress against prejudice is hopeless. It honestly donât hurt you AT ALLâno oneâs asking you to gouge out your eyes, or to give them a million dollars, or anything. Theyâre asking a very simple, very effortless thing. Besides, the names that people donât want to share with others not from their culture are very, very few sacred names to them, compared to all of the lovely ones that are available to anyone who wants to use them. Just be a decent person.
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You come off a bit aggressive in your replies. Please try to be a bit nicer. There are a handful of minors on the forums alongside adults, and even so, no one deserves to be spoken to like that, regardless of who they are.
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Oh absolutely! I think research is always important and I would assume most people pick names they either heard somewhere, either around them or on holiday, read it in a name book or maybe met someone w/ the name theyâre now considering. Rarely do people choose names they have no connection to, but I think the connection can be anything from actually being from the country of origin, having family there, going there on holiday, having a friend with the name, etc.
See, this is an interesting topic that people have many different opinions on.
After speaking to a few Native American relatives of mine, Iâve come to the conclusion that [name_u]Dakota[/name_u] is a bit strange to use, but not totally off-limits, seeing as how it is not sacred. However, itâs probably best avoided.
Now, as a Jewish person, I can say that [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] should not be used at all. It is a name with significant importance to it and non-Jewish people using it for a non-Jewish child implies ignorance and disregard to the struggles of Jewish people and the importance of this name to our culture.
While it is important to research names before you use them, that can only get you so far, because, as Iâm sure you can tell from this thread alone, everyone has different opinions about everything. There are probably Jewish people out there who donât care if a non-Jewish person names their baby [name_m]Cohen[/name_m]. Ultimately, youâre going to have to make a decision yourself. [name_f]My[/name_f] advice, though, would be to stay away from any names that might be offensive and/or considered appropriation, and to speak to those that the name could affect to find out what these names would be.
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[name_f]My[/name_f] apologies, it was not my intention. [name_f]My[/name_f] post has been edited. I just get riled up by those who want to dismiss othersâ experiences as if they donât matter.
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Yes! Exactly this. Thank you.
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Okay, but if every person of every culture asked you to not do something because they find it offensive, you could not do anything. And again, you may say others shouldnât use certain names but another person also belonging to your culture, maybe in a different city, state or country but maybe part of your family or friend group says the name is totally fine for everyone to use, why should your opinion matter more? If someone in my friend group would tell me âhey Polly, you know this name is super special to me and holds a special place in my cultureâ and my child would interact with them often I would absolutely take that into consideration even if another friend of that culture would tell me itâs totally fine. However, I think we cannot take everyoneâs feelings into consideration, especially not every internet strangerâs, weâd get nothing done.
And of course I would call somebody by a different pronoun if they asked me to, that is not the same whatsoever, though.
And, as already stated, not every connection is immediately obvious. There are some Italian-Americans who have never been in Italy themselves (sorry to every Italian-American for bringing you up constantly, I donât believe you are this way, itâs just an example, haha) who may say âhey, youâre from Sweden, why are you naming your kid Giovanni? You canât do thatâ without realising that these Swedes are in Italy every year and have made friends there; their child might experience more of Italian culture than the It-American ever will. Maybe a kid named Nour by parents from Germany is named after a best friend whose parents immigrated from Syria; maybe the French parents are naming their child Sura in honour of the Jewish woman who lived in their house before WW2, maybe the parent has studied Japanese in university and names their child Suki because of an appreciation for the language?
You can always be offended, about everything, and you can create a pyramid of suffering and only the peoples at the very bottom (or top?) are allowed to use all names, problem is, there wonât be peoples on the bottom, thereâs no innocent people.
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Which is totally fine and seems to be a common opinion which absolutely should be considered (and I would advise anyone not to use it); however, there are many non-sacred names and I believe, for those names, one personâs negative opinion should not hold more weight than another personâs positive one.
Edit. But I also think itâs important to be considerate and this is less a âI would use all these names / I want everyone to use themâ, I would actually advice against some of them and I would agree with others who do as well, I just donât believe that one person can say what is and isnât acceptable.
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this is a lovely sentiment, but not something that often works irl.
first off, some cultures/religions are âclosedâ (for example, Judaism). This means that all practices within the religion are closed off to non-members. Is this how it works every single time irl? Of course not! Plenty of non-Jewish children attend their friendâs bânei mitzvahs, or celebrate holidays with them. That would be appreciating culture.
Where it gets into appropriating culture is when members of a closed community take traditions and lead them or participate in them without input from those within the culture. For example, Christians hosting seders. Something that almost everyone in the Jewish community agrees is antisemitic, but still happens despite our objections. Because someone not Jewish is hosting (leading) the seder, they are appropriating the tradition.
This can be extended to names - Iâm going to take the name Moshe as an example (Note: not all Jews will agree with me on this, I am just using it as an example! I would use Cohen as an example but honestly not even Jews use it as a name so itâs just a different situation). Names are super freaking important in a lot of Jewish communities! Moshe is the original Hebrew form of Moses. Moses, the anglicized/english form, is okay for non-Jews to use. Moshe, the name of the very important Jewish prophet? Not okay. Yes, both Jews and Christians have the Moses figure, but Moshe is specifically Jewish and, because Judaism is a closed religion, imo using it on a non-Jewish child would be appropriation.
I cannot speak to any other culture because I am not a member of them. However, in the case of Judaism, being âopen with cultureâ opens up Jews to unwanted and harmful proselytizing and does more harm to the minority culture than good.
Additionally, the only thing we want people to do is listen to us. Just listen to us when we say that something (like a name!) is off limits or antisemitic/appropriation and change your behavior accordingly. You do not get to decide that something is not harmful when you are being told that it is harmful because you are not the one being harmed (general you in this paragraph, not you specifically @OpheliaFlora).
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I never said you should listen to every single person that has a feeling about a name, so Iâm not sure where youâre getting that. I stated several times âif you have no connection toâ a culture, which encompasses a wide range of possible connections. As I also stated in my posts, if thereâs a name that is offensive to a culture, religion, or ethnicity, you should definitely consider it very carefully and probably not use it, especially if youâve seen, in multiple places, that itâs harmful and offensive. I will never, ever say âTake one personâs view and only one personâs.â No way, research thoroughly, check multiple sources, and talk with as many people as you can. If a person wants to name their child Duck, but their neighbor doesnât like that, it is waaaaaaaaaay different than someone wanting to name their child [name_u]Bodhi[/name_u] or [name_m]Cohen[/name_m] who has no connection to the religion or culture. There have been countless discussions and publications about names like this, and so yes, if you even bothered to look them up, youâd find lots of reasons why you shouldnât use those names.
Please, please be aware that it is incredibly frustrating and depressing for people of marginalized cultures, such as myself and my husband, to read or hear things like âOh, you donât want me to use a sacred name/word/symbol even though I have no connection to the culture itâs from? That means I canât do anything!â You can literally do a BILLION other things or use a BILLION other names or wordsâŚI promise, most people arenât trying to stifle you or control you or take away any freedoms. They just want the respect that any human being deserves.
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Yes!!! Yes, yes, and more yes. Exactly.
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I think this raises really important points, and I think if someone around you were to consider Moshe, or even someone on NB, this would be a great argument for not using it (and I would totally agree). However, what also happens a lot on the internet are many generalisations that might not apply to everyone as everyone considers things from their point of view, and this greatly includes where they live, and makes it a universal truth. As you mentioned, many cultures have many communities all over the world, some more closed that others but even within those cultures, sub-cultures exist, people think differently, act differently. Some people are more open about their religion than others, think it needs to be opened up more, while others believe it should stay closed. I think saying one of those peopleâs opinion should have more weight than the other can be quite a difficult and dangerous statement to make (dangerous because it would never allow for change), so while I totally agree about voicing ones opinions, I think, assuming that everywhere else in the world that opinion is also shared and rings true and should have significant weight is an opinion that I disagree with (but also not something that is addressed at your text).
All in all, I think you should listen to different opinions (from all over the world) and, in the end, make the decision that you feel comfortable with in your community. And that appropriation should not be the default opinion but the question of connection should be answered first.
I was mainly disagreeing with and arguing against this. But I totally think that, if youâre talking about an opinion that is held in a large part of a community like @MagnoliaE example of Moshe, you should absolutely reconsider your choice and evaluate if the connections you have to the name/culture are strong enough (which is a very personal choice).
I think I address it pretty explicitly in my response 
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