From nickname to proper name as an adult?

I’m sure this has been discussed, I tried to search, but wasn’t sure what to plug in.

I see all this talk about giving a child a proper name for a nickname. A full name for [name]Ellie[/name] or [name]Maggie[/name] or [name]Tess[/name] or [name]Belle[/name], etc. [name]Do[/name] you expect your children to shift over at some point to [name]Eleanor[/name], [name]Margaret[/name], [name]Theresa[/name] or [name]Isabelle[/name]?

If you were given a nickname as a child, did you go by your full proper name at some point? Or was this just a backup plan in the case the child hates their nickname? I admit, I did it! I was able to use a foreign name and use a American nickname. I did it in order to name my child after my grandfather.

I was born in 1980. I have some friends called… [name]Jenni[/name], [name]Jeni[/name], [name]Krissy[/name], [name]Lizzie[/name], [name]Mandy[/name], [name]Angie[/name], [name]Nikki[/name] and [name]Becky[/name] who, now, in their late 20s and early 30s continue to go by all of the above and have not gone to their proper names. From that list, all professionals, including 2 doctors, 2 elementary teachers, a sales exec, IT consultant, exec admin and a business owner.

I’m just curious why there is such a big push for full names for [name]Ellie[/name], [name]Maggie[/name], [name]Tess[/name] and such… I’d love to hear your thoughts and opinions.

I use my nickname with friends, family,people I meet on the street etc. but I use my full name when I have an audition or with professors, my full name sounds professional and respectable while my nickname is cute, spunky and I enjoy having the option to choose how to introduce myself.

[name]Hope[/name] that helps :slight_smile:


Personally, I think that a so-called proper name - I prefer the term “formal” - looks more sophisticated and professional, should the occasion ever arise for such qualities (which it probably will). I’m not one who has this issue, as my name is [name]Lauren[/name], but I can attempt to speak on it to the best of my abilities…

My older brother is named [name]Benjamin[/name]. However, he exclusively goes by [name]Ben[/name] - he has since infancy. He uses [name]Benjamin[/name] on all of his important documents - medical files, job applications, drivers’ license - but he is just [name]Ben[/name]. He never introduces himself by saying, “I’m [name]Benjamin[/name], but you can call me [name]Ben[/name].” It’s just, “I’m [name]Ben[/name]. Nice to meet you!” He even made a big fuss when his company - he is about to turn 23 and has his first “real” job - printed [name]Benjamin[/name] on his business cards (he ended up getting promoted and requested [name]Ben[/name] to be on his next batch of cards). [name]Do[/name] I - or my family - ever expect him to go by [name]Benjamin[/name]? Certainly not. I couldn’t imagine it! But, is it nice that he has [name]Benjamin[/name] to fall back on? I think so…

Granted, in my opinion, [name]Ben[/name] is more of a “real” - formal - name than, say, [name]Elsie[/name] or [name]Alfie[/name] or [name]Sadie[/name]. If I wanted to call my child [name]Elsie[/name] or [name]Alfie[/name] or [name]Sadie[/name] exclusively, I’d still name them [name]Elisabeth[/name] or [name]Alfred[/name] or [name]Sarah[/name]. I personally like the look of a formal name - it looks professional, elegant, and, well, finished.

Before my parents chose [name]Lauren[/name] as my name, they were debating some other choices. They already had my older brother, [name]Benjamin[/name] “[name]Ben[/name]” [name]Alexander[/name], and they had a name in mind for my twin sister, [name]Sarah[/name] [name]Price[/name]. They just couldn’t figure out what to do with me! My maternal grandmother wanted them to name me [name]Cara[/name] [name]Irene[/name], after her own name, [name]Irene[/name]. But, [name]Cara[/name] rhymes with [name]Sarah[/name], so that was - thankfully - out! My mother loved [name]Maggie[/name] [name]Simone[/name], a lot. I was nearly [name]Maggie[/name] [name]Simone[/name]. Not [name]Margaret[/name], just [name]Maggie[/name]. [name]Do[/name] I wish that my mother had named me [name]Maggie[/name] rather than [name]Lauren[/name]? No. But, do I wish that my mother had named me [name]Margaret[/name] “[name]Maggie[/name]” (or [name]Magdalen[/name], [name]Marguerite[/name], or [name]Magnolia[/name]) instead of [name]Lauren[/name]? Honestly, yes, if only for the sake that it matches my siblings’ names better.

I love the nickname [name]Maggie[/name] - I think it is spunky and fresh, classic and playful, and I think it carries well from childhood to adulthood. But, at the end of the day, for me, it is still just a nickname. That’s why, even though I love [name]Maggie[/name] more, [name]Margaret[/name] is on my list of names for future children, solely to get to [name]Maggie[/name] (or [name]Maisie[/name], [name]Pearl[/name], [name]Daisy[/name], or [name]Greta[/name]). I need a name to have a finished, complete look, and a formal name gives me that. If my future [name]Maggie[/name] ever wanted to go by [name]Margaret[/name], I wouldn’t stop her, but she would always be my [name]Maggie[/name].

So, basically, I think it is a matter of personal preference. Those are my thoughts - do with them what you will!

Take care, and good luck!

[name]Lemon[/name] :slight_smile:

I think the point is that you have the option of using your whole name. A doctor may go by [name]Maggie[/name] with coworkers, but still have her business card say [name]Margaret[/name].

I also read that some people think that the beginning of the trend for giving girls nicknames as proper names coincides with the infantilization of women.

But yes, I am totally against giving a nickname as a proper name (for a boy or girl.)

I have some very strong feelings on this topic, which I know I’ve discussed elsewhere, and hope I’ve not stepped on anyone’s feelings and definitely don’t mean to do so here.

My biggest trouble is that a nickname is just that: a nickname. It is not a real or given name; it is something that someone decided to call a person to make their name shorter or easier to say. There are accepted nicknames for certain names (eg [name]Maggie[/name] for [name]Margaret[/name] etc) and while those are very pretty, putting [name]Maggie[/name] on a birth certificate seems absurd. It is not a real name; it is a shortened version of [name]Margaret[/name], a name with a real history and meaning. Diminutive forms almost never fight their way into real name-dom, except ones that sound distinct from their originators (eg [name]Sadie[/name] ([name]Sarah[/name]) and [name]Jenny[/name] ([name]Jane[/name])).

I also think this raises the idea of simply naming your children [name]Junior[/name], or CJ, or [name]Buddy[/name], or whatever other nickname might come up during their life. Nicknames are meant to stand for something; not be something in and of themselves.

To answer your question about switching to their proper name, I have to say that that isn’t the point. My full name is [name]Jennifer[/name], I go by [name]Jennie[/name] and never plan on going by [name]Jennifer[/name] ever, but when I call the doctor to make an appointment, you better be sure I’m telling them my name is [name]Jennifer[/name]. They will recognize it, know how to spell it, and I don’t have my doctor’s nurse calling me the same pet name my husband or my mother does. It’s a nice perk of having a nickname; it’s there for your family and familiar use, not for just anyone.

One last point I wanted to make is that a nickname feels incomplete. The child will always be asked if their name is actually [name]Theresa[/name] or [name]Margaret[/name]. In fact, I’ve been asked, in earnest, if my full name is [name]Jennifer[/name], because people like having that closure. Knowing you have a full name, but having the option of going by something more familiar is really nice. Being confined to a short version of someone else’s name just seems unfair.

Anyway, I hope this helps. I realize that I’m a bit on the extreme, but it’s nice this topic came up: I was considering starting one myself. :slight_smile:

I have to say that I have always wondered about this as well. I have never fully understood why people love nicknames so much. [name]Don[/name]'t get me wrong, I like nicknames, I just think that they happen, in naming my child I planning on using his or her full first name, not abbreviating it immediately. I see people find a name for their child and they already know that they want to call their child something else. It surprises me a bit. I guess I understand that people want their child to have a more elegant, professional, adult name as an option in the future, but I don’t understand that they know from the start that they want to call their child something else. I get especially confused when people want to find a full name to go with the nickname that they love.

My cousin has a daughter named [name]Isabella[/name], a beautiful name. She announced her name while she was still pregnant and her mom and husband started calling the baby Izzi. My cousin was a bit disappointed because she liked the full name so much better than the nickname that they had come up with. They went ahead with the name and now at 5 she is and has always been Izzi.

I have two very good friends who up until fairly recently have gone by nicknames and now have transitioned into their full names. My friend [name]Samantha[/name] was [name]Sam[/name] all throughout junior high and high school, but when she started college she decided that she wanted to be [name]Samantha[/name], it worked because all her new friends knew her as [name]Samantha[/name] and many of her old friends were able to transition over. My friend [name]Bob[/name] has been [name]Bob[/name] all his life, now he is trying to become [name]Robert[/name]. He is having a much harder time transitioning his name over. He has realized that it would have been much easier if he would have changed when he entered college or when he started his job, but now, everyone knows him as [name]Bob[/name] and it is tough for him to become the more distinctive [name]Robert[/name].

Recently I told my sister-in-law my favorite girls name ([name]Violet[/name]) and her reply was, what would her nickname be? I was surprised that this was one of her first reactions. I guess some people think that a nickname is necessary, I just don’t.


You are right about people wanting you to have a full name. My mom is [name]Judy[/name] and is asked often if her full name is [name]Judith[/name]. My husband is [name]John[/name] and he gets asked if his full name is [name]Jonathan[/name]. People do assume that someone with a name that is typically a nickname has a different full legal name, which I suppose could be a bit of an annoyance if you don’t.


I agree with you to some extent. I don’t love the idea of using only a nickname - I often wonder, “Well, why didn’t you just name the kid that instead?” But, at the same time, I did just write up a whole thing about how I love [name]Maggie[/name], but wouldn’t just name my child [name]Maggie[/name]. She would be [name]Margaret[/name], because [name]Margaret[/name] looks more complete and professional in my opinion. But, at the same time, she’d be [name]Maggie[/name] from the get-go! I’d introduce her as [name]Maggie[/name], and I’d expect that most people would call her [name]Maggie[/name], not [name]Margaret[/name] - not her “real” name. Yes, the concept is an odd one, but I, for one, am not comfortable with giving children nicknames as names.

My two favorite names, [name]Lydia[/name] and [name]Anna[/name], would likely be used in full. Yes, I do think Lyddie and Lyds are cute nicknames for [name]Lydia[/name], and I’m sure they’d be used in passing, but [name]Lydia[/name] is too stunning to never be used. Yes, I absolutely adore the nickname [name]Annie[/name] - more so than [name]Maggie[/name], even - and [name]Anna[/name] would be [name]Annie[/name]. But, she could, and would, also be [name]Anna[/name], since I love [name]Anna[/name]. I’ve had a hard time reconciling myself to the fact that [name]Maggie[/name] would be [name]Maggie[/name] and not [name]Margaret[/name], her “real” name, something that almost makes me want to scratch the name off my list right now! I guess we’ll just see what happens. Maybe [name]Margaret[/name] will grow on me in the next several years!

Take care!

[name]Lemon[/name] :slight_smile:

I think there are different categories of nicknames. For example, [name]Maggie[/name] might be called [name]Maggie[/name] 99% of the time. But [name]Whitney[/name] might be [name]Whitney[/name] 50% of the time (with everybody), [name]Whit[/name] with friends, and Whitty with very close friends. She would always introduce herself as [name]Whitney[/name], but her friends use a nn half the time.

Almost all of my friends with nns introduce themselves by their full name, but [name]Natalie[/name] –> [name]Nat[/name] sometimes, [name]Megan[/name] –> [name]Meg/name sometimes*.

I love being called by a diminutive of my name, because it makes me feel closer to the people using it. I also love using nns.

*I know [name]Megan[/name] is originally a nn for [name]Margaret[/name].

Another funny thing, if you go by your nn 99% of the time, your full name can sometimes almost become a nn. For example, I know a [name]Liz[/name] who always goes but [name]Liz[/name], but every once in a while we’ll call her [name]Elizabeth[/name]. It’s weird if you can’t use a full name for a full effect. E.g. I love you, [name]Lizzy[/name] and I love you, [name]Elizabeth[/name] have very different connotations. It’s nice to know you can use both.

I personally think that it is there own choice wether they go by [name]Ellie[/name] or [name]Eleanor[/name], [name]Art[/name] instead of [name]Arthur[/name], etc, etc. But at the end of the day, they do have a formal name for formal ocassions. I would probably never just named my daughter such an informal (though pretty) name/nn such as [name]Ellie[/name], but I think it is very cute for parents and friends alike to have a perosnal or shared nn for there kid. And even if you carry your nn into adulthood, what does it matter? It is your personal choice.

I’m getting a bit confused with the above paragraph, so I am just going to try and sum up:

[name]Little[/name] [name]Ben[/name] may love his name as a kid but want his boss to call him [name]Benjamin[/name] at work. Or litte [name]Katherine[/name] may love [name]Katherine[/name] but hat [name]Kathy[/name], and insist that everyone call her her full name. [name]Truly[/name], I think nns are great, and can be used or not, but overall I would prefer to have a formal name as backup.

Phew, that took a lot out of me!

My name is [name]Ann[/name], but almost everyone calls me [name]Annie[/name].

At school I go by [name]Ann[/name], but at home and with close friends, I’m [name]Annie[/name]. I love that I can have these different levels of familiarity. I personally prefer [name]Annie[/name], but [name]Ann[/name] is so respected and formal that it’s nice to have that option.

My sister, on the other hand, is (guess what!) [name]Maggie[/name]. Her full name is [name]Margaret[/name], but she is never, ever called that. (She says she hates [name]Margaret[/name], too.) But our mom calls her Magpie as a pet name. And close friends and some family (including me) call her [name]Mags[/name] most of the time. She’ll probably never use [name]Margaret[/name] for anything, but at least she has the option.

(My aunt is [name]Elizabeth[/name], but has gone by [name]Beth[/name] for her whole life, and not [name]Beth[/name] is on most of her documents. The same thing happened with my Uncle, whose formal name is [name]John[/name], but he only goes by [name]Jay[/name] - and now it’s basically his legal name.)

Surprisingly many people go on to be quite successful regardless of their name. Giving your child a name that sounds more like a doctors name isn’t going to guarantee your child is going to grow up and become a doctor. I’m sure there are some very well named slackers still living at home with mom and dad, not living up to the high expectations of their names. I do believe many people and I admit to being one of them, judge a person by their name. I hate to admit to that but it’s true. Some names do sound more professional than others. As far as nicknames for names are concerned - My name is [name]Lisa[/name] and technically it’s a nickname/variation of [name]Elizabeth[/name]. I have even been asked a few time if [name]Elizabeth[/name] was my “real” name. I’m sure there are plenty of names that are technically nn’s that today we’d never consider as so. I have my own personal likes and dislikes for which “nicknamey” names I’d use. Some proper names just aren’t as nice as their nicknames.

I’m a mother of an 11 year old girl who goes by a nickname nothing like her own. It’s a name that herself and her friends dreamed up one day at school. I was hoping that by giving my child a “cool” middle name she might want to use it instead if she ever one day (gasp) hated her first name. No matter what name you give your child the fact is one day they might just stop answering to it and only answer to [name]Mango[/name].

It’s so funny to me how they in the English speaking countries of the world have nicknames that go with the ‘proper’ name (eg [name]Robert[/name]/[name]Bob[/name]). It’s weird how you have to like the nn for the name you give your child.
Where Im from (Denmark) you would never consider what your baby’s nn is going to be if u call him this or that. You pick a name that u like (we only have a few names that are actually nn used a proper names) and then later on you might think of some nick but a parent would never introduce their kid w the nn, I have never experienced that.
Then later on the kids at school and stuff will come up with other nicknames and later the girlfriend will find something but rarely, and I mean rarely, have I seen someone stick with a nn.

Also a nickname (someone mentioned that a grandparent’s nn was on documents and things) could never, ever become the formal name here, not unless the person actually changes the birth certificate.

I don’t know what I think about naming ur baby eg [name]Margaret[/name] and wanting the nn to be [name]Maggie[/name] and then always call her [name]Maggie[/name]. I don’t like how distant ppl might feel to their proper name which is after all their name and also I don’t like how it’s already decided what the nickname is, it does so that it’s not a nickname anymore and giving a friend or a kid and nickname seems less special because they already have which becomes a ‘proper’ nickname.

Wuh that’s all :slight_smile:

Not exactly a response to the original question, but…

I have nothing against giving names that were conventionally nicknames as full names. What I’m bothered by is the extent of use of nicknames in English. That is, is I wanted to ever call my daughter [name]Maggie[/name], that would be the name I’d give her. If she were [name]Margaret[/name], I’d never want to shorten it.

[name]Hi[/name]! I thought I would add my two cents, since I am a 30 year old [name]Katie[/name] (formal name [name]Katherine[/name]), who has never, ever gone by [name]Katherine[/name]. [name]Katherine[/name] only goes on official documents. Nobody in my life has ever called me that.

I personally am against giving children nicknames. I have always found [name]Katie[/name] too childish, and for years I wanted to switch to something more respectable. However there was never an appropriate time/way to transition to being [name]Kate[/name] or [name]Katherine[/name]. I have always been known as [name]Katie[/name], so it just never felt right to suddenly ask that people call me something else. If you give your child a formal name and shorten it to a nickname, I would not assume that they will ever transition later in life. It’s quite hard.

I have made peace with “[name]Katie[/name]”, but I will not be giving my children nicknames!

I think there are so many beautiful formal names that yield great nicknames, so why not have the best of both worlds! Also, having both allows for some versatility when the child gets older, and may prefer a more formal name in professional situations. [name]Just[/name] my preference- whatever works for everyone else is just fine!

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I don’t really have an opposing opinion on nicknames as names instead of formal names. I think there was a recent blog about a woman whose parents apparently named her “[name]Peggy[/name]” even though on paper, she was [name]Margaret[/name], who later did not feel like a [name]Peggy[/name] and transitioned into [name]Greta[/name]. I may be getting the nicknames involved all wrong, but you get the point. This is the apparent beauty of not naming your child “just” [name]Peggy[/name], or whatever. Not only can the person derive something out of [name]Margaret[/name], she can just be [name]Margaret[/name], if she grows to find that more professional. Saying you love [name]Peggy[/name], and deciding that [name]Margaret[/name] shouldn’t matter (or you love the nickname but hate the formal name) takes away that leeway later, for the adult your child will become.

However, some names really only have one apparent nickname anyway. Some names, like my name, don’t have an apparent nickname at all. I’ve known people with “nickname” names, like [name]Molly[/name], for example. [name]Molly[/name] is derived from [name]Mary[/name], but established through use as a distinct name. [name]How[/name] different is [name]Molly[/name] from [name]Mary[/name] anyway? [name]How[/name] many “choices” does someone who has [name]Mary[/name] to “fall back on” get? In one way, it doesn’t differ too much from a [name]Peggy[/name]-just-[name]Peggy[/name], in the way that anyone with a name may feel like their name doesn’t fit them, but in another way, [name]Mary[/name] is a lot less nickname-able, and close to [name]Molly[/name], where [name]Margaret[/name] has a lot of nicknames and diminutives, some kind of distant from the sound of [name]Margaret[/name] (like [name]Daisy[/name]), and a full formal name that makes a [name]Peggy[/name] feel like she can stay a [name]Peggy[/name] or go with something completely different.

Take another name, like [name]Beth[/name]. I think someone contemplating “[name]Elizabeth[/name]” might be shy their daughter would become “[name]Liz[/name]” and head it off at the pass (or the other way around - I would categorize [name]Eliza[/name]/[name]Elisa[/name]/[name]Ellie[/name]/[name]Liz[/name], etc. on one end and [name]Beth[/name]/[name]Bess[/name]/[name]Betsy[/name], etc on the other end of preference - most people prefer one half of this name to the other half). It’s pretty normal to like a nickname better than the full name or any other potential outcome of it. So, to the point, maybe calling a daughter [name]Bethany[/name], so they will be called [name]Beth[/name] and definitely not [name]Liz[/name], by anyone. No matter what you call your child at home, if they do have options, they may use them if they feel it’s more appropriate to their personality and personal taste. That I don’t have a problem with. I guess, personally, I would say, I hate certain nicknames and would avoid those formal names just in case, but very few, and I would be open to the growth and self-discovery of my child otherwise and not be too sunk if they changed their nickname. I also think there’s a totally good chance people will continue with their chosen nickname, and those awful nicknames will never arise, so I would put that fear at about 10% unless you absolutely detest the nickname someone else might tag your child with at some point during their lives.

As far as having a “nickname” for a formal name altogether, I’m on a case-by-case basis with it. People tend to feel names that end with an -ee sound, like [name]Mary[/name], even, are too informal. I don’t like using a formal name as a nickname for a longer and more elaborate formal name… I don’t like when I see people like a name like [name]Julia[/name] and get all grossed out because they hate for their child to maybe be called [name]Julie[/name] at some point, or to shy away from other French forms like [name]Sophie[/name] or [name]Sylvie[/name] because they seem too informal from their Latin counterparts that end with an -ah sound. There are a few formal names I don’t think are substantial, and there are a few nicknames I think stand on their own and don’t need to be backed with some “authority” of a formal name. A lot of formal names that are currently accepted are actually diminutives - names ending in -ina/-ine, -ella/-elle, or -etta/-ette may commonly either be the feminized form of a masculine name, or a “pet” name of a shorter feminine name. Making the name longer doesn’t necessarily mean it’s even more formal than the shorter version, and something about that sometimes puts me off. If the formal name in question is X, and someone’s idea of a better formal name is ‘little X’ and then use X as a nickname, it’s backwards to me. [name]Just[/name] being shorter doesn’t make it the nickname of the name - the longer may in fact be the endearment of the shorter name, of which one is supposed to grow out of.

Lastly, I will bring my own name again. [name]Karen[/name]. A while ago, I realized all over again (it had been a while since I thought of it), that my name is a variation of [name]Katherine[/name]. Had I been a [name]Katherine[/name], I almost certainly would have been [name]Kathy[/name] due to when I was born. I don’t have a nickname, and had tried during high school to maybe get people to start calling me [name]Kari[/name] (and how many ways I thought should I spell it???) It was just not coming together on my part, and so this never happened. Recently, I considered just calling myself [name]Kate[/name] and people would call me [name]Kate[/name]. It’s kind of a stretch, since my name is almost already so short, and there’s no T in it. I love [name]Kate[/name], but I don’t think this is going to happen either. If I had been a [name]Kathy[/name] with a whole [name]Katherine[/name] to work with, it might work, and I might have thought of it years ago and gotten used to it. I don’t like [name]Kathy[/name], I’m sure I would have found a way out of it. I do like my name, so maybe I just don’t really feel like I have to find a better name that fits me. Hopefully, that’s true of most people, so I would go back there on a case-by-case basis, and see how important it is to you they have “options” or just have the name you love to call them, and whether or not you’d take an adult with that name seriously.

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My problem isn’t that I would want to use a nickname as a proper name, but that I [name]LOVE[/name] many proper names but wouldn’t use them because I despise most of the nicknames or at least don’t like them nearly as much as the proper name. They ruin perfectly fine names for me, because I like [name]Margaret[/name] not [name]Maggie[/name], [name]Nathaniel[/name] not [name]Nate[/name] etc.

Would [name]Ryan[/name] or [name]Emma[/name]'s name end up being shortened as often as [name]Margaret[/name] or [name]Nathaniel[/name]'s? Definitely not! I am all for proper/formal names, but if everyone, including the parents insist on calling [name]Margaret[/name] [name]Maggie[/name], I’d just choose another name that ages well as opposed to [name]Maggie[/name]/[name]Margaret[/name].

Some of the names we call “formal” are actually established now, but are short forms, as in nicknames of longer names - [name]Emma[/name] is "originally a short form of Germanic names that began with the element ermen meaning “whole” or “universal”. Names like Ermingarde, Ermentrud, Ermengild. Blech, I know, right?

Yadda yadda yadda, [name]Emma[/name] stands on its own now in English-speaking countries, and so does its alternative, [name]Erma[/name]/[name]Irma[/name]… you can kind of think of it being stripped down to the best essential portion of the whole, and means “whole” all on its own, as long as we’re noticing things.

[name]Even[/name] if you take a nickname like [name]Jack[/name], and you wonder, besides [name]John[/name], what could it be a nickname of, you arrive shortly with the answer “[name]Jackson[/name].” [name]How[/name] is [name]Jackson[/name] a “formal” name, or more formal than [name]Jack[/name] itself? Someone named [name]John[/name] (or [name]Johan[/name] or something) went by [name]Jack[/name], and named his son something like [name]Stuart[/name], for example, and so everyone knew which [name]Stuart[/name] in town he was, called him [name]Stuart[/name], you know which one I mean, [name]Jack[/name]'s [name]Son[/name].

Over time, we just get used to things and they seem like that’s the way they always were. We shouldn’t be surprised when someone wants to take away the extraneous portions of, say, [name]Katherine[/name], and just put [name]Kate[/name] on the birth certificate, or say that’s a wrong thing to do, either.

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